What were the traditions in Catholicism challenged by luther?

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Wow! Very interesting. I am assuming both are independent of each other? If so,is there any possibilty of both sides uniting as one? Were they one entity as one point in time?
Wel, Lutheran polity is quite different than what you are used to. We consider ourselves “united” by Baptism and the confessions, but the history of Lutheran synods in America has a lot to do with ethnic immigration. To say the least, we are not hierarchical.
To answer your question about a unity of altar and pulpit, it is hard to say, given the liberal trend of the leadership of the ELCA. Most of my family remains ELCA, and they are quite conservative in most of their theological outlook, so we are united in that sense. My dad, who was an ELCA pastor, used to say that the ELCA is a conservative church with a liberal leadership.

The interesting thing is that it is the ELCA here in America that is most deeply involved in ecumenical dialogue, not only with Rome, but with others as well. I, frankly, salute them for being so, and appreciate their work with the Catholic Church. OTOH, while the LCMS seems better positioned to dialogue with Rome - all male clergy and the like - our synod seems more reluctant to sign on to joint statements.

Jon
 
Wel, Lutheran polity is quite different than what you are used to. We consider ourselves “united” by Baptism and the confessions, but the history of Lutheran synods in America has a lot to do with ethnic immigration. To say the least, we are not hierarchical.
To answer your question about a unity of altar and pulpit, it is hard to say, given the liberal trend of the leadership of the ELCA. Most of my family remains ELCA, and they are quite conservative in most of their theological outlook, so we are united in that sense. My dad, who was an ELCA pastor, used to say that the ELCA is a conservative church with a liberal leadership.

The interesting thing is that it is the ELCA here in America that is most deeply involved in ecumenical dialogue, not only with Rome, but with others as well. I, frankly, salute them for being so, and appreciate their work with the Catholic Church. OTOH, while the LCMS seems better positioned to dialogue with Rome - all male clergy and the like - our synod seems more reluctant to sign on to joint statements.

Jon
It seems like a tough task for both sides? Much like Rome and the Orthodox? When one stops and thinks about it… how sad it is to know how divided Christianity is today? 😦
 
It seems like a tough task for both sides? Much like Rome and the Orthodox? When one stops and thinks about it… how sad it is to know how divided Christianity is today? 😦
It is sad. To borrow from Churchill, we seem divided by a common confession.

Jon
 
It is sad. To borrow from Churchill, we seem divided by a common confession.

Jon
Very true…very true. At times I really wonder what God thinks us little finite creatures bickering over Him? :whistle:
 
It is sad. To borrow from Churchill, we seem divided by a common confession.

Jon
I’m glad that you, and others recognize that there is division. Many “non-denominational evangelicals” that I speak to, think that Christ intended for there to be myriads of different opinions, as long as there is unity in the fundamentals. What is fundamental BTW?

A friend had on their fb page that they just left their old Calvary Chapel to go to a non-denominational evangelical community. The response was that if the other “church” didn’t suite her beliefs, she should find one that does, and added “AS CHRIST INTENDED IT TO BE”

It made me sick 😦
 
I’m glad that you, and others recognize that there is division. Many “non-denominational evangelicals” that I speak to, think that Christ intended for there to be myriads of different opinions, as long as there is unity in the fundamentals. What is fundamental BTW?

A friend had on their fb page that they just left their old Calvary Chapel to go to a non-denominational evangelical community. The response was that if the other “church” didn’t suite her beliefs, she should find one that does, and added “AS CHRIST INTENDED IT TO BE”

It made me sick 😦
:ehh: Problem is many folks expect God to adjust to them and not vice versa.
 
I’m glad that you, and others recognize that there is division. Many “non-denominational evangelicals” that I speak to, think that Christ intended for there to be myriads of different opinions, as long as there is unity in the fundamentals. What is fundamental BTW?

A friend had on their fb page that they just left their old Calvary Chapel to go to a non-denominational evangelical community. The response was that if the other “church” didn’t suite her beliefs, she should find one that does, and added “AS CHRIST INTENDED IT TO BE”

It made me sick 😦
Most of the confessional Protestants do not have this viewpoint, fortunately. About essentials that is. For Lutherans, if you disagree with their confessions, it is considered heterodox, for example. The fact is, every teaching of Christ is essential or He wouldn’t have taught it.
 
Most of the confessional Protestants do not have this viewpoint, fortunately. About essentials that is. For Lutherans, if you disagree with their confessions, it is considered heterodox, for example. The fact is, every teaching of Christ is essential or He wouldn’t have taught it.
Iggy,
I’ve been trying to get this meesage across this “essentials” nonsense for quite a while. You’ve done it better than I have. Thanks.

Jon
 
Luther’s main problem with the Catholic Church was the common practice of selling “indulgences”. In short, the church wo…
It’s much more than that. That subject can go on as long as the suns rays can gleam.

Luther looked into a lot of things. There was some 90 something points he made by nailing them to a church door.
 
In my class on ecumenism, taught by a bishop who was on the Council of Ecumenism at Vatican II, he said there was a break on the laying of hands, and subsequently there is not a valid and actual changing of the bread and wine into the Eucharist, the apostolic succession broken.

Luther also wanted to bring about a more emotive service…the homily given by the minister was the main focus, not the Eucharist. There was to be more emotive singing, and he wrote alot of hymns.

Another factor was that the German populace was wanting to have a more separate jurisdiction away from Rome, this sentiment shared by the English and Scandinavians. Now in England and particularly in Scandinavia, Christianity is just about dead. You get too ethnic you loose your universal faith in Christ calling all to Him.

I was going to add here that yes, Luther lost faith in apostolic succession, and one based one’s belief on personal insights from the Holy Spirit. But alot of his movements simply represented the reality that the Church was in need of reform.

My girlfriend is Lutheran. I have known her for 45 years. She was a foreign exchange student to our school, and brilliant as she was beautiful. She went into her faith journey that led her to India, to Poona, and she went through that stage…now she returned to her Lutheran roots and rejoices in the Lord. She shared with me how she went out to get some boughs of evergreens for a church holiday, and we are one in love.
 
I’m glad that you, and others recognize that there is division. Many “non-denominational evangelicals” that I speak to, think that Christ intended for there to be myriads of different opinions, as long as there is unity in the fundamentals. What is fundamental BTW?
There is a popular saying ‘in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity’. Pope John XXIII even used it in an encyclical. It is a true statement. But as you ask what is essential? That is the key question. As @IggyAntiochus points out the teachings of Jesus must be essential. People who hold wildly different ideas concerning what his teachings mean can consider themselves united on essentials. Many Protestants hold to this doctrine of essentials but clearly it in practice has no value unless you can know with assurance what is an essential. I think holding fast to this doctrine has mostly led to an abandonment of what used to be essential in order to achieve the unity.
 

Yeah…but who sets the condition? You interpretation of Scripture? What is going to be your basis? You are going to do like Mohler did (in the link I provided)?

Then you are no better than what Mohler does if you do this…“If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason, tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.”

As I said previously…it is like you shot an arrow into a wall…and painted the target around it.
If you could convince me that the Reformed faith were unbiblical rather than unCatholic, I would change my mind.
Well…here is your dilemna…the Catholics gave you the Bible…so how can Catholics be unbiblical? Or rather…is your interpretation, which you only got from someone’s interpretation…is unbiblical and has no basis on the what the traditional Christians believed?

Actually, I will let a Calvinist historian tell you what he found…he did investigate and this is what he found…(if you dare to read what he discovered)…calledtocommunion.com/2010/06/how-john-calvin-made-me-a-catholic/

Excerpts…

Calvin shocked me by rejecting key elements of my Evangelical tradition. Born-again spirituality, private interpretation of Scripture, a broad-minded approach to denominations – Calvin opposed them all. I discovered that his concerns were vastly different, more institutional, even more Catholic…This variety struck Calvin as a recipe for disaster. He was a lawyer by training, and always hated any kind of social disorder. In 1549, he wrote a short work (Advertissement contre l’astrologie) in which he complained about this Protestant diversity:

Every state [of life] has its own Gospel, which they forge for themselves according to their appetites, so that there is as great a diversity between the Gospel of the court, and the Gospel of the justices and lawyers, and the Gospel of merchants, as there is between coins of different denominations.

What most Evangelicals today don’t realize is that Calvin never endorsed private or lay interpretation of the Bible. While he rejected Rome’s claim to authority, he made striking claims for his own authority. He taught that the “Reformed” pastors were successors to the prophets and apostles, entrusted with the task of authoritative interpretation of the Scriptures. He insisted that laypeople should suspend judgment on difficult matters and “hold unity with the Church.”3…Calvin, however, taught that the Eucharist provides “undoubted assurance of eternal life.”5 And while Calvin stopped short of the Catholic, or even the Lutheran, understanding of the Eucharist, he still retained a doctrine of the Real Presence. He taught that the Eucharist provides a “true and substantial partaking of the body and blood of the Lord” and he rejected the notion that communicants receive “the Spirit only, omitting flesh and blood.”6.

Since the eighteenth century, Calvinism has devolved more and more into a narrow set of questions about the nature of salvation. Indeed, in most people’s minds the word Calvinism implies only the doctrine of predestination. Calvin himself has become mainly a shadowy symbol, a myth that Evangelicals call upon only to support a spurious claim to historical continuity.

The greatest irony in my historical research was realizing that Evangelicalism, far from being the direct descendant of Calvin, actually represents the failure of Calvinism. Whereas Calvin spent his life in the quest for doctrinal unity, modern Evangelicalism is rooted in the rejection of that quest. Historian Alister McGrath notes that the term “Evangelical,” which has circulated in Christianity for centuries, took on its peculiar modern sense only in the twentieth century, with the founding of the National Association of Evangelicals (1942). This society was formed to allow coordinated public action on the part of disparate groups that agreed on “the new birth,” but disagreed on just about everything else.10

I realized instead that Calvin was part of the problem. He had insisted on the importance of unity and authority, but had rejected any rational or consistent basis for that authority. He knew that Scripture totally alone, Scripture interpreted by each individual conscience, was a recipe for disaster. But his own claim to authority was perfectly arbitrary.

It eventually occurred to me that Calvin’s attitude contrasted sharply with what I had found in the greatest Catholic theologians. Many of them were saints, recognized for their heroic charity and humility. Furthermore, I knew from reading them, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis de Sales, that they denied any personal authority to define doctrine. They deferred willingly, even joyfully, to the authority of Pope and council. They could maintain the biblical ideal of doctrinal unity (1 Corinthians 1:10), without claiming to be the source of that unity.
 
jwright82;8965881]
The bible is the “word of God” not tradition. ./
The Bible as “word of God”…you know this because of Tradition…tradition handed out by the Church.

Let me ask you a question…how do you know Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark? why don’t you provide me the chapter and verse where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark?

And when you find this chapter and verse…why do you now accept the gospel of Mark as Scripture? As inspired?
QUOTE]But we reformed place a high emphasis on tradition but for us our tradition can be wrong. Hence changable
If it can be changed…then its basis and foundation was wrong in the first place…there was no truth to it to begin with.

So what you are saying then…is that when you change your tradition…those who were taught the previous tradition where taught with error…whihch can never happen in the RCC!
Mohler would be like most orthodox protastants in that we regognize the creeds of the early church to be biblical and binding on christians.complex and refined Catholic dogma not simply taking the texts at face value. In short you can only offer an interpretation of tradition not tradition itself.

No…our Catholic tradition informs our understanding of Scripture…the Traditions…Oral (Sacred Tradition) and the written (Bible) make our understanding whole.
Well, if Calvin believed it, why do you not believe it now? If the Early Church, the early Christians, the early catholics, believed in the Marian doctrines, and Calvin also…so where did you get the idea not to believe them now?
If he did, it is unbiblical.
How do you know it is unbiblical? So you decide what is biblical and not? Or is it unbiblical because somebody said it is.

But Calvin, your protestant grandfather…did not believe it is unbiblical…so what makes it unbiblical all of a sudden?
I do not think that the earliest christians beleived this. But your argument already assumes your conclusion and presupossitions about tradition, so you are making a circuler argument.
So…you think…but you have no basis except what somebody has told you…and you believe that somebody hook, line and sinker, correct? And where did that somebody get the idea?

We know that it is definitely not Calvin…because you and that somebody go against what Calvin believes…so you belief is novel…no connection to the early Christians…and it is you who going in circles.

And how do Catholics know…because we have thrown out the beliefs of the early Christians…we still carry that to this day…

here is a writing you may not have come across…orthodoxphotos.com/readings/LG/dormition.shtml
And you you are simply choosing based on what a group of people decided what was “Catholic” or not.
It was the Apostles…and which they handed down to their successors…and so forth…and is protected by the HS…through the seat of Peter…the Pope.

You, on the other hand…believe in only what you want to believe…and by someone what to believe…and throw out what they do not want to believe…because it does not agree with their interpretation of scripture…same as Mohler.
You have the same problem, which proves why Sola Scriptura is so important. You are proposing a false dillema, either we have an infallable tradition or we have nothing. This assumes that a third option, Sola Scriptura, is impossible. That is a logical fallacy.
SS is not even in the bible…nor was taught by the Apostles…well, why don’t you prove it was taught by the Apostles to begin with…if you can.

And here is a personal testimony on SS…by a missionary couple who applied it in their mission to open churches…and this is their experience…freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

excerpt:

And finally, the Protestant notion of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) fell apart each time I tried to test it. I began to see that Evangelicalism’s insistence on going by the Bible alone led continually into division and problems. Worse yet, claiming to go by the Bible alone didn’t really provide any certitude of belief for believers.

Another church split over the election of a female elder. Splinter groups split from splinter groups which had split from other splinter groups. The church was “multiplying,” all right.

Although several missions groups, including the one which had brought us to Guatemala, work to unite Protestants and help them work together, I realized that there is no reason to assume that unity can be established when unity has never been established between Protestants, since Luther’s day!

I thought about this choose-your-own-church syndrome constantly. While all of us missionaries from these various denominations proclaimed the purity of our gospel, the truth was, there was no way for any of us to know for sure which of us had it “most right.”

This is the point at which I began to have serious doubts about the doctrine of sola scriptura. I noticed that the early Church did not follow the Protestant concept of going by the Bible alone. That was a shocker! My study of the early Church showed that Scripture and Sacred Tradition, promulgated by the Church’s teaching magisterium, was the model of authority for the early Christians.

So let me ask you…Jw…with SS…where was the “one body, one faith, and one baptism” St. Paul spoke about so passionately?
 
=KathleenGee;8977105]In my class on ecumenism, taught by a bishop who was on the Council of Ecumenism at Vatican II, he said there was a break on the laying of hands, and subsequently there is not a valid and actual changing of the bread and wine into the Eucharist, the apostolic succession broken.
Hi Kathleen,
Yes, this is the Catholic view. As you know, we don’t share that view.
Luther also wanted to bring about a more emotive service…the homily given by the minister was the main focus, not the Eucharist. There was to be more emotive singing, and he wrote alot of hymns.
Now, I’m not sure that was his intent. Certainly, that has been a problem in American Lutheranism, which has been influenced in some ways by protestantism, but that is begining to be fixed. The Church’s duty is to preach the word and administer the sacraments. It is an “and both”, not an “either or”. One is not apriority of the other.
Another factor was that the German populace was wanting to have a more separate jurisdiction away from Rome, this sentiment shared by the English and Scandinavians. Now in England and particularly in Scandinavia, Christianity is just about dead. You get too ethnic you loose your universal faith in Christ calling all to Him.
Is this evident in Orthodoxy, which is far more “ethnic”?
I was going to add here that yes, Luther lost faith in apostolic succession, and one based one’s belief on personal insights from the Holy Spirit. But alot of his movements simply represented the reality that the Church was in need of reform.
My girlfriend is Lutheran. I have known her for 45 years. She was a foreign exchange student to our school, and brilliant as she was beautiful. She went into her faith journey that led her to India, to Poona, and she went through that stage…now she returned to her Lutheran roots and rejoices in the Lord. She shared with me how she went out to get some boughs of evergreens for a church holiday, and we are one in love.
Thanks for sharing this.

Jon
 
Hi Jon,

When I point out more emotive singing, what I am seeing in that is that the Church was in need of reform…there was a suppression of faith.

Yes, I see Eastern Orthodox as ethnically defined by their own titles and practices vs the universal Latin rite…I see the Latin rite overly defining…and in modern times, opening up the door so wide to sinners that our former disciplines have waned.

I was on a new case with a Greek Orthodox family, and the immediate unity of faith I experienced with them was almost tactile…the icons throughout the house really made an impact with me…their demeanor…I looked at their calendar and they have fasting on Wednesday’s and Friday’s…this is the practice that is encouraged from Catholic Medgugorje. The Orthodox go very deep into mysticism…

It is like I see the Latin rite as the point of entry or return…but to keep going…one can end up in mystic Orthodoxy. Both Latin and Eastern were founded by the Apostles, and the faith passed down intact. The family and I began to talk and we are on the same page and they told me they do not like arguments and share the same prayers as I for common unity of faith.

My German girlfriend and I reconnected in Germany. Later she travelled down to Marechiarro to stay with me before my departure to Africa. She blended in very well with the Catholic priests who provided us another building for guests. We had meals with them joined with the Italian laity friends. She is ecumenical and humanitarian in heart…and that is an aspect of the universal faith and vision we mutually share.
 
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