What/who regulates the use of music in liturgy?

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FabiusMaximus

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Hello,

Lately I have been attended Mass at a seminary nearby my home. The seminary offers public masses on Saturdays (Extraordinary Form) and Sundays (Ordinary Form). I’ve been primarily attending the EF on Saturday mornings but the past couple weeks I’ve wanted to check out the OF. Last week Sunday it seemed fairly close to the EF in terms of style, but this week, the music seemed more “contemporary” (for lack of a better word) and there was the use of guitars. I did notice that a different priest celebrates each Mass. Is it the priest that determines how the flow of the Mass goes, or is it someone/something else?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
 
It’s fine.
Worry about more important things.

People do express themselves musically in varying ways, and the priests, yes, even really GOOD ONES, don’t fuss at them. They are grateful for the musicians that step up.
It’s been my experience as a Church musician that priests who really don’t like a particular style, or instrumentation, or delivery. don’t hesitate to say so and give direction and guidance.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Hello,

Lately I have been attended Mass at a seminary nearby my home. The seminary offers public masses on Saturdays (Extraordinary Form) and Sundays (Ordinary Form). I’ve been primarily attending the EF on Saturday mornings but the past couple weeks I’ve wanted to check out the OF. Last week Sunday it seemed fairly close to the EF in terms of style, but this week, the music seemed more “contemporary” (for lack of a better word) and there was the use of guitars. I did notice that a different priest celebrates each Mass. Is it the priest that determines how the flow of the Mass goes, or is it someone/something else?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Click to expand...
It depends - different places handle it differently. Sometimes priests make that call. Other places have lay liturgists or liturgy committees made up of parishoners that are too entrenched/powerful and the priests either don’t stand up to them or don’t care. Ask 20 different parishes/chapels how those choices are made and you’re likely to get 20 different answers.

Ask the rector at the seminary. He will be able to tell you how it is determined there.

It is ok to be concerned about these things. Don’t settle for watered-down, secularized liturgical music. Vatican II didn’t allow for it, contrary to popular belief.
 
It is ok to be concerned about these things.
Click to expand...
Concerned? Or critical.
There are far too many liturgy “experts”, or should I say “police” in the pews already.
There are oodles of questions about this or that being “correct”.
Why can’t we as a people of faith just rejoice in the Mass without picking apart style, motive, preference, or actions?

What tends to regulate the music is what a parish can afford. Simple as that.
If you have bad music, it’s likely because they don’t want to upset a volunteer who does the best they can with no budget for materials.
Music is the LAST thing on most parish budgets.
They’re always asking for volunteers for funerals even. :rolleyes:
Hard to be picky when untrained people do the best they can.
 
pianistclare said:
Concerned? Or critical.
There are far too many liturgy “experts”, or should I say “police” in the pews already.
There are oodles of questions about this or that being “correct”.
Why can’t we as a people of faith just rejoice in the Mass without picking apart style, motive, preference, or actions?

What tends to regulate the music is what a parish can afford. Simple as that.
If you have bad music, it’s likely because they don’t want to upset a volunteer who does the best they can with no budget for materials.
Music is the LAST thing on most parish budgets.
They’re always asking for volunteers for funerals even. :rolleyes:
Hard to be picky when untrained people do the best they can.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty certain my word was “concerned.” Reckon I should have used “worry.”

Budget is a poor excuse, as there’s a plethora of good, solid, appropriate, accessible Catholic music available for free online. Printing costs for would be a fraction of what is spent on the bulletins that get thrown away weekly.

If “best they can” is relying on the canned materials OCP and their ilk churn out, they can do better for less cash.
 
Generic_Name said:
I’m pretty certain my word was “concerned.” Reckon I should have used “worry.”

Budget is a poor excuse, as there’s a plethora of good, solid, appropriate, accessible Catholic music available for free online. Printing costs for would be a fraction of what is spent on the bulletins that get thrown away weekly.

If “best they can” is relying on the canned materials OCP and their ilk churn out, they can do better for less cash.
Click to expand...
I’ve noticed that the music in Catholic parishes tends to be provided by enthusiastic amateurs - unless you are at the Cathedral or at a parish with a lot of converts from high-Church Protestantism, you won’t see any salaried professionals in charge of the music.

OCP meets the needs of amateur musicians.
 
A one year reproduction license through OCP costs $639.00, for a large parish.

There are many hymns out there in the public domain that are appropriate for Catholic Mass and are just as good (or better) than the hymns in the OCP.
 
Generic_Name said:
It depends - different places handle it differently. Sometimes priests make that call. Other places have lay liturgists or liturgy committees made up of parishoners that are too entrenched/powerful and the priests either don’t stand up to them or don’t care. Ask 20 different parishes/chapels how those choices are made and you’re likely to get 20 different answers.

Ask the rector at the seminary. He will be able to tell you how it is determined there.

It is ok to be concerned about these things. Don’t settle for watered-down, secularized liturgical music. Vatican II didn’t allow for it, contrary to popular belief.
Click to expand...
I was personally pretty shocked when I witnessed it. The EF Mass they offer on Saturdays is beautiful, elegant, and very reverent. I wanted to try the OF because as someone seriously inquiring into Catholicism, I knew I had to learn to appreciate it, too. I liked the first Sunday I attended, but the second time around it was completely different. And I do get concerned about it, because part of what attracted me to Catholicism was to move away from watered-down liturgical music.

Also, I should clarify (even though you haven’t suggested it), that my post wasn’t intended to criticize Vatican II at all.
It’s fine.
Worry about more important things.
Click to expand...
People do express themselves musically in varying ways, and the priests, yes, even really GOOD ONES, don’t fuss at them. They are grateful for the musicians that step up.
It’s been my experience as a Church musician that priests who really don’t like a particular style, or instrumentation, or delivery. don’t hesitate to say so and give direction and guidance.
Click to expand...
I personally don’t buy it has anything to do with musicians or music budgets. Orthodox parishes seem to get around just fine with their liturgy. In fact, that’s part of the reason why I wanted to ask this question. In the past, I had attended an Orthodox parish for a while and their Sunday services were always the same, every single Sunday, with almost zero differences. I just wanted to know why I find such variation in a Sunday Mass. I think it’s certainly a legitimate question.
 
pianistclare said:
Concerned? Or critical.
There are far too many liturgy “experts”, or should I say “police” in the pews already.
There are oodles of questions about this or that being “correct”.
Why can’t we as a people of faith just rejoice in the Mass without picking apart style, motive, preference, or actions?

What tends to regulate the music is what a parish can afford. Simple as that.
If you have bad music, it’s likely because they don’t want to upset a volunteer who does the best they can with no budget for materials.
Music is the LAST thing on most parish budgets.
They’re always asking for volunteers for funerals even. :rolleyes:
Hard to be picky when untrained people do the best they can.
Click to expand...
I agree with your post.

Judging from some of the comments here, it appears to me that some probably don’t have any idea of what actually goes on in parish Music Ministry. 🙂
 
pianistclare said:
Concerned? Or critical.
There are far too many liturgy “experts”, or should I say “police” in the pews already.
There are oodles of questions about this or that being “correct”.
Why can’t we as a people of faith just rejoice in the Mass without picking apart style, motive, preference, or actions?

What tends to regulate the music is what a parish can afford. Simple as that.
If you have bad music, it’s likely because they don’t want to upset a volunteer who does the best they can with no budget for materials.
Music is the LAST thing on most parish budgets.
They’re always asking for volunteers for funerals even. :rolleyes:
Hard to be picky when untrained people do the best they can.
Click to expand...
This is only true if we insist that contemporary music and instruments are an absolute must. I know of at least one US bishop who has recently ordered all parishes to learn at least basic chant. It’s not difficult. Anyone can do it and as Vatican II made clear, it’s the Church’s preference. If a parish is struggling to find good contemporary music / music leaders, why not go with the cheap option that is chant? As the OP pointed out in a later post, the Orthodox have no issue with it. Even the smallest poorest mission chants the entire liturgy every single time without fail… And it’s beautiful.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I was personally pretty shocked when I witnessed it. The EF Mass they offer on Saturdays is beautiful, elegant, and very reverent. I wanted to try the OF because as someone seriously inquiring into Catholicism, I knew I had to learn to appreciate it, too. I liked the first Sunday I attended, but the second time around it was completely different. And I do get concerned about it, because part of what attracted me to Catholicism was to move away from watered-down liturgical music.

Also, I should clarify (even though you haven’t suggested it), that my post wasn’t intended to criticize Vatican II at all.

I personally don’t buy it has anything to do with musicians or music budgets. Orthodox parishes seem to get around just fine with their liturgy. In fact, that’s part of the reason why I wanted to ask this question. In the past, I had attended an Orthodox parish for a while and their Sunday services were always the same, every single Sunday, with almost zero differences. I just wanted to know why I find such variation in a Sunday Mass. I think it’s certainly a legitimate question.
Click to expand...
I dunno, why do we find such variation?
Maybe it’s because people are… unique?
 
twf said:
This is only true if we insist that contemporary music and instruments are an absolute must. I know of at least one US bishop who has recently ordered all parishes to learn at least basic chant. It’s not difficult. Anyone can do it and as Vatican II made clear, it’s the Church’s preference. If a parish is struggling to find good contemporary music / music leaders, why not go with the cheap option that is chant? As the OP pointed out in a later post, the Orthodox have no issue with it. Even the smallest poorest mission chants the entire liturgy every single time without fail… And it’s beautiful.
Click to expand...
It would help tremendously if chant was written in standard musical notation.
 
clem456 said:
It would help tremendously if chant was written in standard musical notation.
Click to expand...
At least some chant is pretty widespread in my archdiocese. People just pick it up if the priest or a cantor starts introducing it. Just takes a bit of repetition.
 
twf said:
This is only true if we insist that contemporary music and instruments are an absolute must. I know of at least one US bishop who has recently ordered all parishes to learn at least basic chant. It’s not difficult. Anyone can do it and as Vatican II made clear, it’s the Church’s preference. If a parish is struggling to find good contemporary music / music leaders, why not go with the cheap option that is chant? As the OP pointed out in a later post, the Orthodox have no issue with it. Even the smallest poorest mission chants the entire liturgy every single time without fail… And it’s beautiful.
Click to expand...
👍👍👍
 
clem456 said:
I dunno, why do we find such variation?
Maybe it’s because people are… unique?
Click to expand...
So are people in the Eastern Orthodox churches all mindless robots that are not unique?
This is only true if we insist that contemporary music and instruments are an absolute must. I know of at least one US bishop who has recently ordered all parishes to learn at least basic chant. It’s not difficult. Anyone can do it and as Vatican II made clear, it’s the Church’s preference. If a parish is struggling to find good contemporary music / music leaders, why not go with the cheap option that is chant? As the OP pointed out in a later post, the Orthodox have no issue with it. Even the smallest poorest mission chants the entire liturgy every single time without fail… And it’s beautiful.
Click to expand...
The chant is the most beautiful portion of all. That to me in itself is music.
 
twf said:
At least some chant is pretty widespread in my archdiocese. People just pick it up if the priest or a cantor starts introducing it. Just takes a bit of repetition.
Click to expand...
That’s the problem. I downloaded some chant instruction last year with the intent of learning it and passing it on. I just don’t have the time to learn the notation.

It’s just another hurdle a busy director has to overcome.
Many of our choir have slowly absorbed reading skills over years of singing. But every piece already takes repetition. Learning new notation takes more repetition for a group that already is pressed for time. We can meet once a week for an hour and a half, and use that time to rehearse the music for Sunday.

If chant is going to happen mainstream (and I think it should), it needs to be readable, in my opinion. It can be done. We already do a couple of chant pieces that are transposed into standard notation.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I was personally pretty shocked when I witnessed it. The EF Mass they offer on Saturdays is beautiful, elegant, and very reverent. I wanted to try the OF because as someone seriously inquiring into Catholicism, I knew I had to learn to appreciate it, too. I liked the first Sunday I attended, but the second time around it was completely different. And I do get concerned about it, because part of what attracted me to Catholicism was to move away from watered-down liturgical music.

Also, I should clarify (even though you haven’t suggested it), that my post wasn’t intended to criticize Vatican II at all.

I personally don’t buy it has anything to do with musicians or music budgets. Orthodox parishes seem to get around just fine with their liturgy. In fact, that’s part of the reason why I wanted to ask this question. In the past, I had attended an Orthodox parish for a while and their Sunday services were always the same, every single Sunday, with almost zero differences. I just wanted to know why I find such variation in a Sunday Mass. I think it’s certainly a legitimate question.
Click to expand...
Great post. Don’t let bad liturgy get you down, seek out places where it’s done correctly and continue to ask questions at places where it isn’t.

I’ll probably get flamed for this, but stick to the EF if possible. There are proper OF Masses out there, but can be difficult to find depending on your location. But even in less than ideal Masses, our Lord is present! 🙂 (And you can always use the opportunity to pray for the souls in Purgatory.)
 
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