What/who regulates the use of music in liturgy?

[jmcrae]

I take it then that you consider an organ to be sacred but a guitar not so?

Respectfully, for the sake of discussion, I ask “Why?”

Because my culture tells me so.

In my culture (North Amerca with ancestors from Britain and Europe) the organ plays the sounds that are instinctively read as “uplifting”. The guitar is used for camp-fire sing-alongs, and people looking to break into the popular music scene - love songs, odes to various features of the landscape, seasons of the year, etc.

Because they are typically used in these different ways, it jars as “odd” not only to use the organ to create love ditties, but also to repurpose love ditties on the guitar as Church music.

 

[HelenRose]

Because my culture tells me so.

In my culture (North Amerca with ancestors from Britain and Europe) the organ plays the sounds that are instinctively read as “uplifting”. The guitar is used for camp-fire sing-alongs, and people looking to break into the popular music scene - love songs, odes to various features of the landscape, seasons of the year, etc.

Because they are typically used in these different ways, it jars as “odd” not only to use the organ to create love ditties, but also to repurpose love ditties on the guitar as Church music.

I love listening to organ polka’s.
I love listening to Ave Maria played on a guitar.

 

[ProVobis]

I’d say generally. A few weeks ago, I was meeting with the youth group of our parish, and we were discussing how to increase Mass attendance among their peers. The topic of music came up. I pulled out my phone and played three songs/hymns as examples and said, “Which of these do you think your peers would find most attractive?” The three pieces were: Oh God Beyond All Praising, Our God, and a piece of Gregorian chant. The response was immediate and all but unanimous: Our God by Matt Redman.

No surprise if this is all they’re taught. I would think peer pressure alone steers them from chant, Latin, etc. I know, I was there too.

 

[felsguy]

I take it then that you consider an organ to be sacred but a guitar not so?

Respectfully, for the sake of discussion, I ask “Why?”

Because my culture tells me so.

In my culture (North Amerca with ancestors from Britain and Europe) the organ plays the sounds that are instinctively read as “uplifting”. The guitar is used for camp-fire sing-alongs, and people looking to break into the popular music scene - love songs, odes to various features of the landscape, seasons of the year, etc.

Because they are typically used in these different ways, it jars as “odd” not only to use the organ to create love ditties, but also to repurpose love ditties on the guitar as Church music.

If I understand then, you instinctively associate something played on the organ as sacred and something on the guitar as anything but because a) you have been conditioned (my word) by your culture to do so; b) in your experience an organ is always (mostly ?) used to play uplifting pieces while a guitar certainly (or mostly?) is not; and please correct me if I’m wrong but I sense also c) you have a preference for the type of music usually heard on an organ and perhaps at least a slight dislike for things typically played on a guitar.

I think this is all well and good, not that you or anyone needs my approval here. The point I have been making or at least have been trying to make is that I do not believe that all types of music (or musical instruments for that matter) can automatically be categorized as sacred or not sacred simply by cultural conditioning, common usage, and/or personal taste. And I contend that to do unreasonably and unnecessarily places arbitrary limits on the body of sacred music, the true purpose of which is “the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful" (quoted from Musicam Sacram: Instruction on Music in the Liturgy- 1967).

I agree without question that the organ, Gregorian chant, and polyphony have been and continue to be well suited to achieve this noble purpose. I disagree that no other instruments and no other types of music can do likewise.

 

[jmcrae]

If I understand then, you instinctively associate something played on the organ as sacred and something on the guitar as anything but because a) you have been conditioned (my word) by your culture to do so; b) in your experience an organ is always (mostly ?) used to play uplifting pieces while a guitar certainly (or mostly?) is not; and please correct me if I’m wrong but I sense also c) you have a preference for the type of music usually heard on an organ and perhaps at least a slight dislike for things typically played on a guitar.

I think this is all well and good, not that you or anyone needs my approval here. The point I have been making or at least have been trying to make is that I do not believe that all types of music (or musical instruments for that matter) can automatically be categorized as sacred or not sacred simply by cultural conditioning, common usage, and/or personal taste. And I contend that to do unreasonably and unnecessarily places arbitrary limits on the body of sacred music, the true purpose of which is “the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful" (quoted from Musicam Sacram: Instruction on Music in the Liturgy- 1967).

I agree without question that the organ, Gregorian chant, and polyphony have been and continue to be well suited to achieve this noble purpose. I disagree that no other instruments and no other types of music can do likewise.

My like or dislike of guitar music is beside the point - the Church asks us to “follow the culture” not “dumb-down the culture”. And we are to follow our own culture; if they use guitars in Spain, all well and good for them; we are not in Spain. If they use drums in Africa, again, wonderful, if you are in Africa. We are not in Africa. We follow (not reinvent) our own culture.

 

[jmcrae]

I love listening to organ polka’s.
I love listening to Ave Maria played on a guitar.

I’ve lived here all my life, and I like to think I get out and around a bit, but I’ve never experienced either of these.

I’m going to be attending an organ recital of sacred music this evening, though. My favourite violinist will be in attendance. He also plays the guitar, but I don’t think it would even occur to him to bring his guitar to a recital of sacred music.

I have several of his CDs, including of his works on guitar. Mostly simple love ballads, nicely performed in an old fashioned style.

 

[ProVobis]

I love listening to organ polka’s.
I love listening to Ave Maria played on a guitar.

Clare can make the Ave Maria sound like a polka on the piano.

 

[HelenRose]

I’ve lived here all my life, and I like to think I get out and around a bit, but I’ve never experienced either of these.

I’m going to be attending an organ recital of sacred music this evening, though. My favourite violinist will be in attendance. He also plays the guitar, but I don’t think it would even occur to him to bring his guitar to a recital of sacred music.

I have several of his CDs, including of his works on guitar. Mostly simple love ballads, nicely performed in an old fashioned style.

This is the organ as I remember it.

youtube.com/watch?v=BKkBDoA1lF8

---

The is guitar music as I can onlydream of doing.

youtube.com/watch?v=LNUJA9N14eM

It is not the instrument it is the music.

 

[felsguy]

My like or dislike of guitar music is beside the point - the Church asks us to “follow the culture” not “dumb-down the culture”. And we are to follow our own culture; if they use guitars in Spain, all well and good for them; we are not in Spain. If they use drums in Africa, again, wonderful, if you are in Africa. We are not in Africa. We follow (not reinvent) our own culture.

A couple comments in response and then I must see to other tasks.

First, if so, I would wonder how the organ ever came into use in the first place. Second, my observations of the music scene in the US indicate that guitars and drums are fairly prevalent in most genres of music. Finally, I have enjoyed this opportunity to organize some of my thoughts on this subject, do some further reading, and have a friendly and civil exchange of ideas and differing opinions. May sacred music continue “to raise our minds to God” (again from Musicam Sacram) wherever it is to be found.

 

[pnewton]

The Church has always taught that Chant and Polyphony are the best and only preference for the Mass.

Polyophonic Chant was once banned and there is not indication of chant in the First Century. The Church no longer teaches this. So the use of the word “only” is wrong on several counts.

We need to get rid of the contemporary music in the Mass because it is not appropriate for it.

That is a singular, and rather narrow, opinion.

 

[pnewton]

Budget is a poor excuse, as there’s a plethora of good, solid, appropriate, accessible Catholic music available for free online.

Budget and resources are most definitely a factor. Anyone who has dealt with this knows this. Yes, there are some online resources, but they are not a solution for all. Then one has to consider whether one has the people capable of using what is online for free and translating that into their own liturgy.

 

[pnewton]

. Is it the priest that determines how the flow of the Mass goes, or is it someone/something else?

If an answer was all that was sought, then you have it with a simple “yes”, though he often delegates the decision to others. He can override, remove musicians, add musicians, assign the hymns, or do pretty much anything he wants, with two caveats. His authority comes from his bishop, who has the final say in his diocese over all aspects of the liturgy.

There are also resources made available, which were mentioned in one of the first post.

All this argument of opinions of what is “good” music, what is reverence and what is allowable is pointless. The authority lies solely in people. One can always make an appointment to talk to the priest in a parish, if one is concerned about it. In most parishes, volunteers are always welcome to help out.

 

[Phemie]

I’m sure you’ve been there too, but to me there is nothing so painful as to watch people walk out during the singing of Gregorian chant. And I never listen to it at home or elsewhere.

Do you mean to tell me you’ve seen people walk out during Mass because they hear Gregorian chant? Oh my. I would consider it too rude to do that during a performance at the theatre, let alone at Mass or Lauds/Vespers.

When I was at Notre Dame Cathedral for Mass in 2013 and I heard the chants I hadn’t heard since I was a kid I thought I’d died and gone to Heaven. That I could also remember them and sing them after more than 45 years because they’d thought to provide us with the Latin words was nothing short of amazing.

 

[Phemie]

I’d say generally. A few weeks ago, I was meeting with the youth group of our parish, and we were discussing how to increase Mass attendance among their peers. The topic of music came up. I pulled out my phone and played three songs/hymns as examples and said, “Which of these do you think your peers would find most attractive?” The three pieces were: Oh God Beyond All Praising, Our God, and a piece of Gregorian chant. The response was immediate and all but unanimous: Our God by Matt Redman.

Every time I take students to Steubenville, they come back wanting to pray more, wanting more Eucharistic adoration, wanting to come to Mass, open to the possibility of a religious vocation, wanting to celebrate the sacrament of confession more frequently, excited about their Catholic faith, etc. And when asked, almost universally, they respond by attributing this in some way to the music. Like it or not, contemporary music draws young people in a way that chant doesn’t.

I would ask one thing: if you remove the music, do they stay? Because if they don’t they are only there because of the music, not the faith.

Back in 1971 when I graduated from high school and left home I didn’t keep going to Mass because of the music, or my parents. I kept going to Mass because I had faith, and I kept going IN SPITE of the music and the silly other things that went on. I went for God. I’m still there in 2016 because of faith, because of God, and in spite of the still awful music.

My kids, OTOH, were not helped by the silly music and in spite of my faith and their being raised to go to Mass, serve at the altar and receive all the sacraments, they are not practicing Catholics today. I’m sure that’s probably my fault for not having ensured that they were better catechized, but still… It’s not praise music that’s going to attract them now.

 

[Phemie]

So if you couldn’t understand English, and heard “Hakuna Matata,” I’ll bet you wouldn’t confuse it with Church music. And I doubt you’d think Bach’s “Ein Feste Burg” was on the hit parade if you didn’t know German. The standard 4-part hymn would never be confused for a top-40 hit, but for some reason we have a tune in our “hymnal” that is a complete rip-off of “Take Five” in every sense: rhythm, harmony, and melody. And it gets used, often, in multiple parishes in which I’ve assisted at Mass.

There are certain criteria one can objectively use to evaluate style, as sacred music has generally developed in a separate sphere from popular music.

I love Carmina Burana, but I’m not sure I would want to hear a Mass seeing ripped off from it - aside from the text the music has a profane feel to it. Lovely music, but entirely inappropriate for Mass.

And “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” as a tenor sax solo? Yikes!

So what makes a saxophone (primarily associated with secular/commercial music) suitable for church, in your mind, but not a kazoo? I’d argue that they’re both out of place in a church setting, but perfect for Saturday cartoons.

Several years ago they sang a “Lord’s Prayer” in my parish that left me very confused and had other words running through my head. It took a few bars but I realized that they were using the music from I Don’t Know How to Love Him from Jesus Christ, Superstar (don’t try this at home, it doesn’t scan right and is painful).

“He’s a man, he’s just a man. And I’ve had so many men before, in very many ways he’s just one more.” Those are the words that kept playing in my head when I was supposed to be reciting/singing the Lord’s Prayer. Yes, there is such a thing as inappropriate music.

Now, there’s music I don’t like. I don’t like Morning Has Broken, not because of the words but because of the tune. I hate singing anything (This Day God Gives Me, for example) set to Bunessan.