What wil happen to the social order in the United States if we get hit with an EMP device?

[Dakota_Roberts]

Yup.

The SCADA* system is vulnerable and cyberwarfare has been ongoing for a number of years with a number of national groups. You can research it on the internet. SCADA is a generic name for the computerized controls of our electric systems, water systems, pipeline systems for natural gas and oil, etc.

All of the literature and the trade publications talk about it, but protection from both EMP and cyberwar tactics is expensive. And the wonks seem to want more inter-connections and more internet links and more internet acces rather than less or less vulnerable.

Just one minor example: New Mexico lost natural gas for heating last winter because the EPA insisted they use electrically operated compressors instead of compressors that could be powered from the natural gas in the pipelines. When electrical power was lost due to storms, they also lost their compressors and thus also lost their locally developed natural gas for heating.

You can look up SCADA on the internet and also SCADA vulnerabilities. It’s a hot topic for discussion, but not here on CAF and it should be. Very important. Maybe not a philosophical subject, but certainly a component of our societal makeup. Even if it is more nuts and bolts than just words … but the discussion is important.

SCADA = Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCADA

I’m intimately involved in this stuff, yes I’m very familiar with SCADAs.

Let’s think about all the awful stuff that could go wrong
BGP redirection, DDoSs (mostly annoying), JWICS linked to the outside, logic bombs, SCADA instructions can be sent over net, aren’t encrypted and aren’t validated before execution (!!!), Chinese leverage of shashoujian (!!!), stock market manipulation,
elevators that connect over the internet (what $%U%#^@! designed elevators to connect via internet?)
printers that connect to the internet, what if someone updated the programming on your machine so it stores photocopies, compresses them and emails them off once a day? Or worse, someone mucks with the coding causing the machine to overheat and catch fire, wham the office is soaked and you miss that bid! Kyocera, Xerox, Sharp, Ricoh all have remote diagnostic tools that can test things on machines, what if they get exploited?
Packet sniffers, 'nuff said
Keyloggers, 'nuff said
Internet controllable washers, dryers, dishwashers, stoves, refrigerators and more (check a high end store)
Someone “tweaks” an OEM OS image that goes on machines
Buffer overflow command line hacking…
Someone stuffed an entire airplane simulator in Excel 97! (Think of what malicious stuff you could hid).
Hack a program under development and insert rootkits and logic bombs…
Hacking a la Siberian pipeline sabotage of 1982 (resulted in three kiloton explosion!)
Trapdoor computer chips…
Think of all the automated stuff in a modern factory, much of that is internet connected
Northeast Blackout of 2003, Slammer worm slowed the systems causing cascade failure, result left 55 million people without electricity (and of course everything that need electricity) and that wasn’t intentional…
1998 software glitch plus weather causes downtown Auckland New Zealand to lose power for five weeks.
New “Smart Grid” from Obama, more wired than ever, yeah great idea.
The list of horrible stuff just doesn’t end

Correction on previous post, generator speeds were in MHZ not Hz

 

[Rolltide]

I’m intimately involved in this stuff, yes I’m very familiar with SCADAs.

Let’s think about all the awful stuff that could go wrong…

…Internet controllable washers, dryers, dishwashers, stoves, refrigerators and more (check a high end store)

Yes, the downfall of America will come when they have control of all our dishwashers!

 

[vz71]

Looking around where I live, an EMP would set us back a few years.

Imagine post-civil war South with automobiles.

True many cars will be crippled without the electronics, I have way too many shade tree mechanics living around to believe the cars would need them very long.

As for fuel, I have seen diesel engines operate from the first run batch of shine.

The deer population would drop rapidly, but I suspect food supply lines would be back in place before the deer run out.

Has anyone given thought to what would happen to a nuclear plant hit by an EMP?
I am sure it is hardened, but as Japan has shown us in their latest tsunami disaster, the plant depends a great deal on external help that may not be available after an EMP.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Looking around where I live, an EMP would set us back a few years.

Imagine post-civil war South with automobiles.

True many cars will be crippled without the electronics, I have way too many shade tree mechanics living around to believe the cars would need them very long.

As for fuel, I have seen diesel engines operate from the first run batch of shine.

The deer population would drop rapidly, but I suspect food supply lines would be back in place before the deer run out.

Has anyone given thought to what would happen to a nuclear plant hit by an EMP?
I am sure it is hardened, but as Japan has shown us in their latest tsunami disaster, the plant depends a great deal on external help that may not be available after an EMP.

How long do you suppose it would take shade-tree hammer mechanics to design and fabricate carburetors and fuel pumps and ignition systems to bypass the burned out computer / electronic controls?

Could all electronic / computer controlled farm equipment be put back into operation quickly?

How would they restore food processing equipment that is now all electric?

There probably is no more than a 30-day supply of food readily available … so how long would it take to get the food processing and distribution chain back up and running?

 

[vz71]

How long do you suppose it would take shade-tree hammer mechanics to design and fabricate carburetors and fuel pumps and ignition systems to bypass the burned out computer / electronic controls?

Using parts from other cars, I have seen it done in a few days.

Could all electronic / computer controlled farm equipment be put back into operation quickly?

I doubt it.

How would they restore food processing equipment that is now all electric?

What equipment is this?

There probably is no more than a 30-day supply of food readily available … so how long would it take to get the food processing and distribution chain back up and running?

I have no idea.
But what I do know is a number of people around where I live would welcome the prosepect of off-season hunting.

Keep in mind, I have only paid about 5 minutes attention to this.
Looking around with the premise that anything with an transister in it will not be working and going from there.
I am sure that a more intense look will reveal difficulties…but I am not so certain the people around where I live would find it impossible to go around these.

I guess it is par for the course living in a very independent minded region of the States.

 

[FaithBuild18]

As soon as I get out of college I’m buying a gun and learning to use it. I’d do it now but we can’t keep concealed weapons in the dorm.

Laugh at me if you wish, but not only will I be prepared for an EMP strike, but I’ll be prepared for when the zombies attack and when the vampires attack as well.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I have been reading apocolyptical books for some 35 years. So far, not one has occurred. And the books tend to be pedantlically utopic/dystopic.

So I quit reading them and don’t think about these things. A person could go nuts trying to be prepared for every barely possible scenario out there.

Sufficient unto the day…

On the other hand, some certain things ARE already happening: international cyberwarfare is real and has been ongoing for a number of years … maybe for a number of decades.

We do know that the Iranians and North Koreans are developing and marketing their long range missiles … and developing nuclear warhead capabilities and have been observed firing missiles from ships.

In terms of building certain defenses … as the saying goes … better ten years too soon than a day too late.

We have had some nasty power outages to give us a foretaste of what could happen … because for some of us it already has happened. And could happen again.

Being without electricity for three days or ten days … or if in New Orleans, for months … is something to be prepared for.

People who had NO preparations got hammered when their electricity failed and their basements flooded and they had no way of running their sump pumps. This is only a small failure situation. It only ruined their furnace … only several thousand dollars.

Would a home generator be helpful in case of an EMP attack? Maybe. Maybe not.

Better have a manual backup, however.

Just in case.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

On the other hand, some certain things ARE already happening: international cyberwarfare is real and has been ongoing for a number of years … maybe for a number of decades.

We do know that the Iranians and North Koreans are developing and marketing their long range missiles … and developing nuclear warhead capabilities and have been observed firing missiles from ships.

In terms of building certain defenses … as the saying goes … better ten years too soon than a day too late.

We have had some nasty power outages to give us a foretaste of what could happen … because for some of us it already has happened. And could happen again.

Being without electricity for three days or ten days … or if in New Orleans, for months … is something to be prepared for.

People who had NO preparations got hammered when their electricity failed and their basements flooded and they had no way of running their sump pumps. This is only a small failure situation. It only ruined their furnace … only several thousand dollars.

Would a home generator be helpful in case of an EMP attack? Maybe. Maybe not.

Better have a manual backup, however.

Just in case.

SIberian pipeline sabotage in 1982, that’s almost thirty years and over thirty since the cyber sabotage so hyes, decades

 

[Robert_Sock]

The only way we are going to get hit with an EMP device is if God wills it, in which case it will be geared toward our salvation from this miserable and corrupt world! Trust that God has everything under control. Again, nothing happens that is not in God’s plan for our salvation! God can take any evil and turn it to a greater good!

 

[Rand2410]

The only way we are going to get hit with an EMP device is if God wills it, in which case it will be geared toward our salvation from this miserable and corrupt world! Trust that God has everything under control. Again, nothing happens that is not in God’s plan for our salvation! God can take any evil and turn it to a greater good!

God has a nuclear arsenal? It will be God’s will if we get hit with an EMP? Sorry sir but you seem mighty quick to blame God for the misdeed of mankind.

 

[vz71]

God has a nuclear arsenal?

Actually, it is more like a reality bomb.

 

[Robert_Sock]

God has a nuclear arsenal? It will be God’s will if we get hit with an EMP? Sorry sir but you seem mighty quick to blame God for the misdeed of mankind.

I’m certainly not saying that God has a nuclear arsenal! (Where did you read that?) All I’m saying is that God has ultimate control over everything that happens! For every evil that is caused by Satan or man, God can bring about a greater good. God is our salvation, and all that happens is ultimately geared toward that salvation.

 

[pnewton]

For every evil that is caused by Satan or man, God can bring about a greater good. God is our salvation, and all that happens is ultimately geared toward that salvation.

I am glad some one said this. I was wondering where all our faith was. Trust in God. He knows our needs.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I’m certainly not saying that God has a nuclear arsenal! (Where did you read that?) All I’m saying is that God has ultimate control over everything that happens! For every evil that is caused by Satan or man, God can bring about a greater good. God is our salvation, and all that happens is ultimately geared toward that salvation.

But, if you’re in a war, you can’t just sit back and wait for God to do the work of fighting the enemy.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I’m certainly not saying that God has a nuclear arsenal! (Where did you read that?) All I’m saying is that God has ultimate control over everything that happens! For every evil that is caused by Satan or man, God can bring about a greater good. God is our salvation, and all that happens is ultimately geared toward that salvation.

Sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands, God does not cater to your every need.

I personally think that preventing the deaths of tens of millions of Americans is a prudent investment.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands, God does not cater to your every need.

I personally think that preventing the deaths of tens of millions of Americans is a prudent investment.

God does indeed use us as his instruments. Of course the government and military need to do everything in their power to try and prevent these types of tragedies from happening. But for us civilians, there is little we can do but to pray and have faith in God.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

You want to avoid the sin of presumption.

People DO have to do somethings for themselves.

Can’t just sit around waiting for God to deliver the pizza.

 

[kimmielittle]

God does indeed use us as his instruments. Of course the government and military need to do everything in their power to try and prevent these types of tragedies from happening. But for us civilians, there is little we can do but to pray and have faith in God.

This sounds very familiar. It reminds me of those people my Big Brother has to try to save as a First Responder…which puts his life in danger.

Not only do they insist upon building on river flood plains - But when asked to evacuate in front of a flood… They trust to God.

We are rightfully to Trust in God…but HE doesn’t say to be stupid… or Tempt Him. As does some snake handler religious do IMO ].

We already know - God already exposes us to geomagnetic forces…which cause much of the same disturbances we experience with EMP disturbances.

windows2universe.org/spaceweather/images/blackout_rice_jpg_image.html

windows2universe.org/spaceweather/blackout.html

science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/23oct_superstorm/

kplctv.com/story/15213287/recent-solar-flares-could-affect-us-infrastructure

latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/08/solar-flare-season-is-just-heating-up.html

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Borrowed from another post:

There is no need for the U.S. to spend more than about 8% of GDP on defense.

Probably 5.1% will do the job. But NOT BELOW 5%.

[If you worked for the government, you could probably find the graph of Soviet military spending as a percent of their GDP.]

I already have provided the graph of U.S. military spending as a percent of GDP and it worked out just fine as long as we kept spending at 5% of GDP.

In 1940, U.S. military spending was 1.7% of GDP and only 17.5% of Federal Government Outlays.

Now, U.S. military spending is only 4.4% or less of GDP and only 17% or 18% [GPO says the data are only “estimated” of total Federal outlays … **in other words, we are now in avery vulnerable … traditional open-to attack … range of military spending. In a range in which we have been hit hard before.

Go here and click on it and scroll down to the chart:

airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Magazine%20Documents/2011/April%202011/0411chart.pdf

As long as we stay at or slightly above 5%, we are fine.

In 1940, defense was 1.7% of GDP and we got clobbered at Pearl Harbor.

The data are here: [repeat post for the 9th time]

You really need to look at the trends in Government spending … and you can tell that a lot of places that post numbers don’t really want you to know what the trend line really is on military spending of the United States.

Go to this Web page. It is by the Government Printing Office:

gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy10/pdf/hist.pdf

Visit Table 3.1

Just scroll down.

It shows from 1940 to 2014 spending … And at the BOTTOM, is National Defense spending as a percent of total Federal Government outlays. [AND ALSO DEFENSE AS A PERCENT OF GDP.]

Unfortunately, until someone here can find a graph that shows all that "Total Federal Government outlays] data in one graph, you [or someone here who has a better computer than I have] would need to manually write the data down and graph it and post the graph here.

But the current military spending as a percent of total U.S. outlays is about as low as it has ever been … except for Bill Clinton’s spending just before 9/11.

That’s the actual Federal government data.

---

Fly your American flag so everyone can see it!

 

[Robert_Sock]

This sounds very familiar. It reminds me of those people my Big Brother has to try to save as a First Responder…which puts his life in danger.

Not only do they insist upon building on river flood plains - But when asked to evacuate in front of a flood… They trust to God.

We are rightfully to Trust in God…but HE doesn’t say to be stupid… or Tempt Him. As does some snake handler religious do IMO ].

We already know - God already exposes us to geomagnetic forces…which cause much of the same disturbances we experience with EMP disturbances.

windows2universe.org/spaceweather/images/blackout_rice_jpg_image.html

windows2universe.org/spaceweather/blackout.html

science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/23oct_superstorm/

kplctv.com/story/15213287/recent-solar-flares-could-affect-us-infrastructure

latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/08/solar-flare-season-is-just-heating-up.html

What does any of this have to do with my post? I’m confused.