What will become of Paul?

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As I was researching a particular topic totally unrelated to Christianity, I came across this tidbit of information about the person I believe to be Paul, in a hadith narrated by Ali (as).

6 months after the prophet (pbuh&hf) passed away, a gang led by Umar ibn Al-Khattab the 2nd khalif surrounded the house of Ali & Fatima (as) and threatened to burn the house down if Ali did not come out and pledge his allegiance to the first Khalif, Abu Bakr.

The gang broke the door down, tied Ali’s hands and dragged him and his followers out of his home to the mosque to force his pledge of allegiance to the new Khalif, while at the mosque and after his allegiance was forcefully extracted, the following exchange took place.

Ali (as) said to Umar: O son of Sahak, we don’t have a right (in this matter) yet you and your companion (abu bakr) do?

Omar replied: stop it now that you have given the allegiance. The people are pleased with my companion and were not pleased with you, so what’s my fault?

Ali said: But God and his Prophet were not pleased except with me, so rejoice, you and your companion and whomever follows you two with God’s anger, punishment, and humiliation. Woe to you ibn Al-Khattab, if you only knew what you brought on yourself and your companion.

Abu Bakr interjected: Oh Umar, so long as he gave us his pledge, let him say what he wants.

Ali continued: I won’t say any more than this, I remind you of what the prophet (pbuh&hf) had said. I heard him say, “a coffin in helfire, with 12 men inside it, 6 of them are from the earlier generations and 6 from the latter generation. In a coffin that is locked in a pit inside hellfire. The pit, covered by a rock. When God wishes to intensify the hellfire, He would remove the rock from the pit and the hellfire would burn more intensely from the heat of the pit.”

so I asked the messenger of Allah (pbuh&hf) about the 6 people from the earlier generation, while you were witnesses and he said, "the early ones are: 1. The son of Adam who killed his brother, 2. The Pharaoh, 3. The one who disputed with Abraham (as) about his lord. 4,5. and two men from the children of Israel who changed their books and ways, the first one Judified the Jews and the 2nd one Christianized the Christians. 6. And Iblis/Satan/Lucifer is the 6th.

From the later generations, the anti-christ and these 5 companions of the scroll & book, including their two idols whom they agreed and contracted against you, my brother, and their mutiny against you after you. This one, and this one" until he named and counted all of them for us.

Salman answered: you spoke the truth, we testify that we heard this from the Messenger of Allah (pbuh&hf)…

Source: Kitab Salim bin Qais, Page 161.

My commentary: the Pharaoh referred to is the one who persecuted Moses and the children of Isarel, Judify is not a word I know, but I couldn’t think of anything else to translate it to, and I don’t know who that person is. The one who Christanized the Christians is Paul. The 5 people of the scroll and book is a reference to Umar, Abu Bakr, Ma’az and 2 others who wrote a document agreeing with one another about their plans to remove Ali from any leadership role after the Prophet’s death. The two idols are a reference to Abu Bakr and Umar, in other traditions they are referred to as the two idols of Quraish.

In Summary, Paul along with others will be thrown and coffin and thrown to the lowest pit in hell covered by a Rock.
 
All we could possibly do is speculate but… I wonder what Paul’s motives for changing or misrepresenting Jesus could have been. It wasn’t money and it wasn’t power but it was something he was willing to be persecuted time and time again for before being ultimately beheaded. What do you think his motivation was?
 
As I was researching a particular topic totally unrelated to Christianity, I came across this tidbit of information about the person I believe to be Paul, in a hadith narrated by Ali (as).

6 months after the prophet (pbuh&hf) passed away, a gang led by Umar ibn Al-Khattab the 2nd khalif surrounded the house of Ali & Fatima (as) and threatened to burn the house down if Ali did not come out and pledge his allegiance to the first Khalif, Abu Bakr.

The gang broke the door down, tied Ali’s hands and dragged him and his followers out of his home to the mosque to force his pledge of allegiance to the new Khalif, while at the mosque and after his allegiance was forcefully extracted, the following exchange took place.

Ali (as) said to Umar: O son of Sahak, we don’t have a right (in this matter) yet you and your companion (abu bakr) do?

Omar replied: stop it now that you have given the allegiance. The people are pleased with my companion and were not pleased with you, so what’s my fault?

Ali said: But God and his Prophet were not pleased except with me, so rejoice, you and your companion and whomever follows you two with God’s anger, punishment, and humiliation. Woe to you ibn Al-Khattab, if you only knew what you brought on yourself and your companion.

Abu Bakr interjected: Oh Umar, so long as he gave us his pledge, let him say what he wants.

Ali continued: I won’t say any more than this, I remind you of what the prophet (pbuh&hf) had said. I heard him say, “a coffin in helfire, with 12 men inside it, 6 of them are from the earlier generations and 6 from the latter generation. In a coffin that is locked in a pit inside hellfire. The pit, covered by a rock. When God wishes to intensify the hellfire, He would remove the rock from the pit and the hellfire would burn more intensely from the heat of the pit.”

so I asked the messenger of Allah (pbuh&hf) about the 6 people from the earlier generation, while you were witnesses and he said, "the early ones are: 1. The son of Adam who killed his brother, 2. The Pharaoh, 3. The one who disputed with Abraham (as) about his lord. 4,5. and two men from the children of Israel who changed their books and ways, the first one Judified the Jews and the 2nd one Christianized the Christians. 6. And Iblis/Satan/Lucifer is the 6th.

From the later generations, the anti-christ and these 5 companions of the scroll & book, including their two idols whom they agreed and contracted against you, my brother, and their mutiny against you after you. This one, and this one" until he named and counted all of them for us.

Salman answered: you spoke the truth, we testify that we heard this from the Messenger of Allah (pbuh&hf)…

Source: Kitab Salim bin Qais, Page 161.

My commentary: the Pharaoh referred to is the one who persecuted Moses and the children of Isarel, Judify is not a word I know, but I couldn’t think of anything else to translate it to, and I don’t know who that person is. The one who Christanized the Christians is Paul. The 5 people of the scroll and book is a reference to Umar, Abu Bakr, Ma’az and 2 others who wrote a document agreeing with one another about their plans to remove Ali from any leadership role after the Prophet’s death. The two idols are a reference to Abu Bakr and Umar, in other traditions they are referred to as the two idols of Quraish.

In Summary, Paul along with others will be thrown and coffin and thrown to the lowest pit in hell covered by a Rock.
Sorry Famdigy - Saint Paul is **not **in the pits of hell. As in many things related to Christianity which islam has distorted, this one is wrong on all levels.
 
In Summary, Paul along with others will be thrown and coffin and thrown to the lowest pit in hell covered by a Rock.
“Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand.” (2 Peter 2:10-12)
 
Exactly how reliable is this hadith considered to be? It doesn’t look like it comes from either al-Bukhari or al-Muslim. And even Bukhari admitted that there were probably many errors/false hadith in his collection.
 
Exactly how reliable is this hadith considered to be? It doesn’t look like it comes from either al-Bukhari or al-Muslim. And even Bukhari admitted that there were probably many errors/false hadith in his collection.
Hi Salome - Famdigy is a Shia and they have their “own” type hadiths.
 
Hi Salome - Famdigy is a Shia and they have their “own” type hadiths.
No wonder I didn’t recognize it then. 😃 In any case, “the man who Christianized the Christians” is way too vague for us to know who he was, even assuming he really existed. Well actually his name was Jesus of Nazareth. And I’m surprised that Muslims as a whole seem a lot more concerned about the name of the specific guy who allegedly corrupted Christianity, while they don’t seem all that concerned about discovering the identity of this specific guy who “Judaized Judaism.”
 
All we could possibly do is speculate but… I wonder what Paul’s motives for changing or misrepresenting Jesus could have been. It wasn’t money and it wasn’t power but it was something he was willing to be persecuted time and time again for before being ultimately beheaded. What do you think his motivation was?
Power? He became an extremely influential leader in the early Church. Heck, letters written by him — or in some cases merely by people claiming to be him — are now considered infallible. A lot of people would put their lives on the line for that kind of influence.
Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Would you expect a Muslim to? Do you believe that “there is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet”?
 
When God wishes to intensify the hellfire, He would remove the rock from the pit and the hellfire would burn more intensely from the heat of the pit."
Islam made God a torturing God for human beings. :dts:
Source: Kitab Salim bin Qais, Page 161.
Not authentic source according to the Sunni clerics. 😉
 
Power? He became an extremely influential leader in the early Church. A lot of people would put their lives on the line for that kind of influence.
It’s not about power, it’s about responsibility.
Heck, letters written by him — or in some cases merely by people claiming to be him — are now considered infallible.
Prove that.
 
It’s not about power, it’s about responsibility.
Scardinoz asked what possible motive Paul might have had for corrupting Christianity, and I suggested that power is a possibility. I don’t know how you can know, 2000 years later, what Paul’s personal motivations were, and especially if all you have as evidence is an assertion.

Actually, I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. What’s about responsibility?
Prove that.
Seems trivial, but whatever.

Proof that the Catholic Church regards Scripture as infallible

Proof that the Catholic Church regards certain letters of Paul as canonical Scripture
 
Scardinoz asked what possible motive Paul might have had for corrupting Christianity, and I suggested that power is a possibility. I don’t know how you can know, 2000 years later, what Paul’s personal motivations were, and especially if all you have as evidence is an assertion.

Actually, I don’t even know what you’re trying to say. What’s about responsibility?

Seems trivial, but whatever.

Proof that the Catholic Church regards Scripture as infallible

Proof that the Catholic Church regards certain letters of Paul as canonical Scripture
He meant prove that someone other than Paul wrote the Epistles attributed to him, as you claimed. No one is disputing your other statements.

Good luck.
 
Wikipedia summarizes the disputes. I’m hardly an expert in this subject, but I know that several of the epistles that claim Paul’s authorship are seriously doubted by scholars.
 
Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels are on the bibliography. Not even Catholic; what would their ilk know? You expect an Inuit to know about Bangladeshi culture? The farther from orthodoxy, the less reliable, I say.
 
Bart Ehrman is a former Christian, and he was a textual critic before he was ever an agnostic. He’s not nearly as remote as you’re implying.
 
Power? He became an extremely influential leader in the early Church. Heck, letters written by him — or in some cases merely by people claiming to be him — are now considered infallible. A lot of people would put their lives on the line for that kind of influence.
It seems unlikely, though that he would leave a life of greater power to take on a life of preaching, teaching, and writing letters to a small number of followers. Also, take into account the fact that he was tortured while doing this, imprisoned seven times, and eventually had his head cut off. If he had, at any point, renounced his supposed false teachings, he could have ended his torture and persecution. Again, he was more powerful and possessed more authority before he began preaching Christ than at any other point in his life. In fact, he was even having Christians murdered by the thousands.
Would you expect a Muslim to? Do you believe that “there is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet”?
I only ask because of the picture you have in your signature. Have you noticed the gesture Jesus is making with his right hand?
 
It’s not my signature, but the Christogram? That’s entirely consistent with Islam.
I apologize. I thought that was your signature but I see it was the OP’s. I wasn’t referring to the cross. I meant the gesture Jesus is making with his hand. It is in reference to the Holy Trinity.

Also, as far as the one who ‘Christianized the Jews’, I believe that would be either Jesus himself or James, the leader of the church in Jerusalem. Seeing the Muslim view on Jesus, I would presume it is referring to James. Peter, seemingly, gets off easy. Irony, anyone?

However, simply saying the one who ‘Christianized the gentiles’ is marvelously vague. Paul was certainly a notable example, but what about the founder of the Church, Peter? After seeing the vision, Paul beat a path to see Peter. Outside of Church tradition, scripture tells us plenty to let us know that Peter was the chief bishop.

Here, though, we come up against another strange man. He presumably promoted a perversion of a doctrine given to him by his beloved teacher whom he had spent much time following and continued to promote this perversion even when persecuted, beaten, imprisoned, and ultimately crucified. On top of this, he did not leave Rome when the government began to slaughter the Christians who had adopted his presumably falsified belief in his teacher’s deity. In fact, he stayed and continued to teach his supposed perversions and, when he was about to be crucified, rather than disown this supposed perversion to spare his life, he only insisted that he was not worthy of the honor of dying in the exact same way as his teacher. They, in turn, hung him upside down on the cross.

A very strange man, indeed.

The first guess is that he would have had to be mentally ill. This does not stand up to reason seeing as he was able to win so many believers and teach so well.

Another guess is that he would have had to have been possessed by Satan. In this case it is unlikely because he taught of loving your neighbor and living your life in a way to honor God. It seems Satan would never utter such things.

Was he a fool, then? Did he believe that by presumably betraying his teacher immediately after his death and spreading a presumably false doctrine would win him wealth and earthly power? Even in prison, did he feel that a life of riches was moments away? Why didn’t he leave Rome when asked by his followers? As he approached the cross, why not hail the emperor to spare his life? Did he really think a life of pleasures was still only moments away?

Why would he leave his family and his wife behind to follow a teacher, only to betray that teacher after his death and pevert the teachings he had learned from him even though he was constantly persecuted and still preach a false message up to the point of dying for it? Why did he give up his entire life to spread what he knew to be a lie? If he was twisting the teachings of Jesus, what did he expect his reward after death to be?

In what context could it possibly make sense? Does the Quran explain why all 12 of Jesus disciples supposedly betrayed him and lived persecuted lives in order to betray him?

What about the other believers that followed him?

This is important! How could such a disaster have happened?! What does the Quran say?

Worse still… Could the same have happened with Mohammed? Could Mohammed have been given one truth by Allah and preached another to further his own purposes? DId he gain riches? Did he gain women? Did he gain power?
 
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