What worries me about 'Enlightenment'

[Ben_Sinner]

The thing that bothers me about enlightenment is the fact that it is something that has to be experienced. Unless one hasn’t experienced it, they won’t be able to understand it.

So how can we say it’s untrue since no great Catholic saint or theologian has ever experienced it?

 

[Ad_Orientem]

The thing that bothers me about enlightenment is the fact that it is something that has to be experienced. Unless one hasn’t experienced it, they won’t be able to understand it.

So how can we say it’s untrue since no great Catholic saint or theologian has ever experienced it?

Please explain what you mean by “enlightenment”? Are you talking about a Hindu concept? Buddhist? Rationalist? The saints were certainly enlightened by God, albeit not in the former senses.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

Please explain what you mean by “enlightenment”? Are you talking about a Hindu concept? Buddhist? Rationalist? The saints were certainly enlightened by God, albeit not in the former senses.

Buddhist/Hindu

 

[Billycourty]

I was Tibetian Buddhist for many years and both read books by enlightened buddhists, and met enlightened masters. The wisdom and compassion contained in them was incredible.

But I have encountered the same level of self-awareness (which is what enlightenment is ultimately) in the writings of many Catholic saints: Saint Therese of Avila to name but one. The same enlightened nature in my parish priest.

You should read the lives of the saints, they truly bring the Catholic faith to life and introduce one to the true epic-ness of Christ and God’s love for us, God’s friendship.

I have never been more free of self, or closer to true self knowledge then I am now, nourished by the teachings of the Catholic church. Leaving behind your ego is one thing, but giving everything to God is another level.

Jay

 

[MaryHelp777]

Buddhist/Hindu

That’s a pagan concept.

Catholic Heaven is about the Beatic Vision,
Being able to experience God for all eternity.

The Holy Spirit of course has given great inspiration to theologians and saints, and revelations to the saints.

Some of the saints experienced Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. Some of the saints experienced ecstacy, a strong experience of the joy of God.

So theologians and saints have experienced God in a powerful way.

 

[AndrewRuki]

Peace be with you Brother.

Could you elaborate exactly what you mean by ‘Enlightenment’, as I would like to join this conversation.

I, although a Catholic, have studied Buddhism (in my spare time) and may be able to contribute.

Dominus vobiscum.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

Peace be with you Brother.

Could you elaborate exactly what you mean by ‘Enlightenment’, as I would like to join this conversation.

I, although a Catholic, have studied Buddhism (in my spare time) and may be able to contribute.

Dominus vobiscum.

The Buddhist/Hindu concept of nirvana where one ‘realizes’ the world and ‘I’ as an illusion, and discovers their divinity and breaking of the circle of rebirth/reincarnation.

 

[AndrewRuki]

The Buddhist/Hindu concept of nirvana where one ‘realizes’ the world and ‘I’ as an illusion, and discovers their divinity and breaking of the circle of rebirth/reincarnation.

Peace be with you Brother.

You placed the word “realizes” within quotation marks. This is very apt, as according to Buddhist teachings one has to force himself/herself to accept life as an illusion.

Let me first ask; was Jesus an illusion? Is God’s love for you and us an illusion? I am sure that the reply would be “No”.

Buddhism teaches “one-ness” with one’s self. Everything and everyone else is subsequent and not important. It teaches detachment from family as well as those we love. If they are in need of help “Let them help themselves”. By detaching yourself from all things and people, you are free of all burdens. You are also alone.

If you recall the movie “Equilibrium” the drug, which is capable of eradicating Negative emotions, also eradicated positive emotions. This can be an analogy to Buddhism. While you have no sad burdens, you have no happy burdens either. At this point, you have no cares for the world or anyone in it. At this point, the world can cease to exist. It can be an illusion.

Hope this makes sense.

God made the world and saw that all He made was “Good”. Go enjoy this world, as it is as real as you make it. Go enjoy the Love that He poured in to it, for it is real too.

Dominus vobiscum.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Buddhist/Hindu concept of nirvana where one ‘realizes’ the world and ‘I’ as an illusion, and discovers their divinity and breaking of the circle of rebirth/reincarnation.

But that would be a delusion.

Reincarnation is illogical because we don’t remember past lives and what we did right and what we did wrong. We’d be doomed to repeat mistakes over and over.

Also, in Hinduism, they treat the untouchable as those who did evil in their past life and are now making up for it in this life, in order that they might come back again in a better life.

The result was letting people die in the gutters of Calcutta.

Mother Teresa comes along and picked those poorest of the poor and cared for them.

You decide which of the two spiritual beliefs are the enlightened ones ?

Jim

 

[ynotzap]

The Apostles were enlightened as Jesus promised. He stated that they would receive the Holy Spirit when He ascended into Heaven. At that time they would receive understanding of all that He taught them. So too are we enlightened when we turn to Christ and ask for His Spirit. When we understand through supernatural revelation we are enlightened. As we live the Christian way of life, we experience the fruit of this enlightenment. Our spiritual insight become deepened. The words of Scripture become alive and meaningful in our lives. Our spiritual blindness becomes healed. All of this is caused by the Holy Spirit, the “Enlightener” To see as God sees, is to be enlightened To arrive at an understanding of a serious problem when no body can help is to receive the grace of enlightenment.

 

[mikekle]

I have never been into eastern religions, but have read about it here and there, when it comes to enlightenment, I do understand why its wrong, but since so many people do claim they experience it, what is it then?

If it is demonic in origin, it doesnt look like it, as most people claiming to have reached this level, are very peaceful people who are indeed happy and content, how could someone truly feel this way without God?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Enlightenment in Eastern Religious philosophy is also referred to as being awake or fully aware of the present moment.

Its no different that what was taught by St Augustine in the Confessions when he reflected on time and the only thing that exists is the present moment, where God is. The past has gone, the future is yet to come and time is only relevant to us mortals who have a fixed amount of days to live in this state.

Fact is, if you want to control ego driven pride, learn to live in the present. In the present, the ego is weakened. For the ego has us thinking in the past about what we should’ve done to better impress people with our false image. It also dwells in the future as we think about how to create an image that will impressive people.

It exists in religion as well as in daily life. The ego has the individual asking, " how can I be holy so people will notice my holiness and be awed ?"

We all do it and its best to be honest about it and become aware of our ego driven agendas.

Its the only way we can grow in humility, which is the path toward holiness.

Jim

 

[Revert2015]

Peace be with you Brother.

You placed the word “realizes” within quotation marks. This is very apt, as according to Buddhist teachings one has to force himself/herself to accept life as an illusion.

Let me first ask; was Jesus an illusion? Is God’s love for you and us an illusion? I am sure that the reply would be “No”.

Buddhism teaches “one-ness” with one’s self. Everything and everyone else is subsequent and not important. It teaches detachment from family as well as those we love. If they are in need of help “Let them help themselves”. By detaching yourself from all things and people, you are free of all burdens. You are also alone.

If you recall the movie “Equilibrium” the drug, which is capable of eradicating Negative emotions, also eradicated positive emotions. This can be an analogy to Buddhism. While you have no sad burdens, you have no happy burdens either. At this point, you have no cares for the world or anyone in it. At this point, the world can cease to exist. It can be an illusion.

Hope this makes sense.

God made the world and saw that all He made was “Good”. Go enjoy this world, as it is as real as you make it. Go enjoy the Love that He poured in to it, for it is real too.

Dominus vobiscum.

This is a very disturbing philosophy. Are they saying that other people don’t exist? Is this the same as solipsism? I’m a little confused.

The way that you describe Buddhism, I can’t think of a philosophy/religion that is more harmful to relationships.

What’s ironic is that during a 2 year exploration of other spiritualities in my early 30s, I checked out a Zen Buddhist center for a few months. Not one of them treated other people with aloofness or without kindness. Also, if the world is an illusion and so are other people, than why do big names like Thich Nacht Hahn advocate for the environment, and why did he write letters to KFC pleading for humane treatment of the animals they raise?

I’m not being disrespectful of this other religion; it just doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Perhaps I don’t understand it correctly. From what I understand, they also emphasize compassion, and my understanding is some of them pray as well. Try as you might, it seems you can’t truly escape the real world, a world that is sustained by Jesus himself, and a world that is governed by love and truth.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I have never been into eastern religions, but have read about it here and there, when it comes to enlightenment, I do understand why its wrong, but since so many people do claim they experience it, what is it then?

If it is demonic in origin, it doesnt look like it, as most people claiming to have reached this level, are very peaceful people who are indeed happy and content, how could someone truly feel this way without God?

I’d be interested in knowing the answer to this too, because it is said that one can’t be truly fulfilled unless they have God in their life, but these enlightened people claim to have just that, complete fulfillment.

 

[LittleFlower378]

I’m currently reading Catholics and the New Age by Mitch Pacwa. There is so much in there that talks about what you all are posting. I look at it as rugged individualism. People want to make themselves gods instead of looking to a higher power and to the Church. There is a good amount of this New Age business all around us, and it doesnt lead us to Christ.

 

[openmind77]

The thing that bothers me about enlightenment is the fact that it is something that has to be experienced. Unless one hasn’t experienced it, they won’t be able to understand it.

So how can we say it’s untrue since no great Catholic saint or theologian has ever experienced it?

I think the book “The Interior Castle” by St Teresa pretty much describes one of the means of attaining enlightenment.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

This is a very disturbing philosophy. Are they saying that other people don’t exist? Is this the same as solipsism? I’m a little confused.

The way that you describe Buddhism, I can’t think of a philosophy/religion that is more harmful to relationships.

What’s ironic is that during a 2 year exploration of other spiritualities in my early 30s, I checked out a Zen Buddhist center for a few months. Not one of them treated other people with aloofness or without kindness. Also, if the world is an illusion and so are other people, than why do big names like Thich Nacht Hahn advocate for the environment, and why did he write letters to KFC pleading for humane treatment of the animals they raise?

I’m not being disrespectful of this other religion; it just doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Perhaps I don’t understand it correctly. From what I understand, they also emphasize compassion, and my understanding is some of them pray as well. Try as you might, it seems you can’t truly escape the real world, a world that is sustained by Jesus himself, and a world that is governed by love and truth.

Buddha did not teach that the world is an illusion. Our *perceptions *of it can be illusory. This is why Right View is the first element of the Eightfold Path to enlightenment and why following the path can lead to Right Understanding, which is to say viewing all things as they are rather than seeing only as an undisciplined mind wishes to see. Hope that helps.

 

[Latias]

Buddha did not teach that the world is an illusion. Our *perceptions *of it can be illusory. This is why Right View is the first element of the Eightfold Path to enlightenment and why following the path can lead to Right Understanding, which is to say viewing all things as they are rather than seeing only as an undisciplined mind wishes to see. Hope that helps.

It seems like Kant plagiarized from the Buddha and just gave it a new name such as the noumena/phenomena distinction.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

It seems like Kant plagiarized from the Buddha and just gave it a new name such as the noumena/phenomena distinction.

It is interesting that you say that. It has been speculated that Hume may have been influenced to some degree by Buddhist philosophy. Some of the principles of the Enlightenment are notably similar to the teachings of the Buddha. Probably the most obvious being this one:

"…don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”

In summary, don’t just accept what people or religion or tradition or logical deduction tell you to be true. Find the truth (or untruth) of these things for yourself through experience.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Buddha did not teach that the world is an illusion. Our *perceptions *of it can be illusory. This is why Right View is the first element of the Eightfold Path to enlightenment and why following the path can lead to Right Understanding, which is to say viewing all things as they are rather than seeing only as an undisciplined mind wishes to see. Hope that helps.

And this where I think Zen and Christianity can merge and I know Catholic Priests who say they are Zen Christians.

The meaning here is that they are centered on the reality of Christian life which is common among contemplatives.

As St John of the Cross alluded to in his Spiritual Canticle, they no longer go off seeking Christ in preachers, claimed apparitions and miracles, but seek Him where He is, dwelling within. They detach from the illusion of a God and heaven that is disconnected from the reality of life.

Jim