What would a christian nation look like?

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When you say a Catholic nation, are you meaning a nation where the majority of people are Catholic, and where the government and laws are based on Catholicism? If yes, I would be very leery of this. The notion of making people adhere to Catholicism ‘by force’ is just as abhorrent as if it was any other religion.
 
Its not like Catholic nations don’t currently exist.
Vatican City is obviously one. And, only with the unification of Italy did the Popes relinquish temporal power over the territory of the Papal States (in 1870). The Papal States had an army, which according to wikipedia, had 4 regiments of infantry (2 Italian and 2 Swiss), a volunteer Battalion of Irish, along with dragoons and artillery.

Another nation that deserves a mention is the Philippines. The Philippines is the only nation (in addition to Vatican City) in which divorce is illegal. You can’t get a divorce in the Philippines, due to the country’s strong devotion to the Catholic faith. You have to get an annulment, which is of course, the view of the Church. The Church doesn’t recognize divorce, it only recognizes annulments.

Contraception would be illegal, which I’m pretty sure the Philippines doesn’t have any contraception there (could be wrong), I know the Vatican doesn’t for sure.
The Philippines does have contraception, what they do not have is the civil government providing it for free as is done by most western nations. Although their legislature did pass such a measure and President Aquino signed the bill at the end of 2012 dispite threats of witholding communion from him by the local Bishops. A few months later their Supreme court put a stay on the law passed the people’s elected representatives

It is believed that up to 70% of the population supports the free contraceptive law. A formal decision by The Supreme Court is expected in March. Los Angeles Times 30 Jan 2014
 
I’ve been reading a lot about Christian morality and social doctrine. I’ve been wondering what would a Christian nation look like? What would its laws be like? What form of government would it have?

It obviously would be pro life, with abortion being illegal, death penalties being rare, people being free to choose their occupations, universal health car ( though not necessarily socialism). One thing that gave me pause was how would dissenters against Christian morality be treated. Would they have freedom of speech but an inability to change moral laws? What would be the role of The Church? What would the military look like? Education? The environment? Taxation? Science and technology? What about all the other things that make up a society? Sorry if this is kinda broad but I couldn’t think how to simplify it.
Well, christianity is a diverse religion, it would depend on the particular branch of christianity. If we are talking about simply a pan-christian nation with the demographics of the US I dont know if Catholics would necessarily love it, because even as the largest single denomination The fundamentalist protestants and quasi-christian branches arnt known for their fondness of the “Papists”.

Sense this is a Catholic forum ill go with a Catholic theoretical state.

Obviously the papacy would hold great sway even if not the direct political authority, and I think a Catholic state would be more likely of having some form of monarchy because of the popes historical authority to crown kings in the name of God, something the protestants generally dont have. Whether its a powerful authoritarian monarchy or a constitutional one possibly even on the level of England with the royalty holding no real power outside of PR. that would probably depend again on the establishment of such nation. Its also possible (though unlikely with todays church) that the churches structure becomes the government, with Bishops acting as governors over their assigned diocese.

There would obviously be no gay marriage, abortion, ect. which i wouldn’t agree with but wouldn’t realy bother me as they arnt issues that effect me. The real question is if all things Christians consider immoral would be illegal, and if the sort of “victimless crime” type of things like use of condoms would be illegal.

Also, the potential for some sort of religious repression is also a possibility. Would non-Catholics and non-Christians have religions rights? Would there be Catholic teaching in schools to non-Catholic kids? Would non-Catholic churches get tax exempt status? Would they even be allowed to exist? would non-Catholics or non-Christians even be allowed to live in the country? If not would they be deported? Imprisoned? forced to live in specific areas?

Personally, If i had to live in a "Christian nation: I would prefer it be a Catholic one, The church has come very far from the middle ages and become in my opinion one of if not the most open and accepting branch of Christianity. While you could not assure a “Christian” government would not become oppressive, I would certainly trust the Catholics to make my laws more than the Protestants.

That said, I despise the very idea of theocracy and state sanctioning of religion. I have no desire to form or live in a “pagan nation”, i want to live in a free one.
 
Originally Posted by FireFromHeaven View Post
I’ve been reading a lot about Christian morality and social doctrine. I’ve been wondering what would a Christian nation look like? What would its laws be like? What form of government would it have?

It obviously would be pro life, with abortion being illegal, death penalties being rare, people being free to choose their occupations, universal health car ( though not necessarily socialism). One thing that gave me pause was how would dissenters against Christian morality be treated. Would they have freedom of speech but an inability to change moral laws? What would be the role of The Church? What would the military look like? Education? The environment? Taxation? Science and technology? What about all the other things that make up a society? Sorry if this is kinda broad but I couldn’t think how to simplify it.​

Government would be minimal because people would govern themselves. Poverty, hunger and thirst would be minimal. The black market wouldn’t exist. God’s will being done on earth, as it is in Heaven. It’s what we should all strive toward everyday. If not us… who? if not now… when?

We complain about our government and our country but we seem to forget… or haven’t accepted… or gotten used to… or are in denial of the fact that… we are the minority. It will never be the same (or better) until we regain critical mass. Educate. Inspire. Enlighten. Evangelize. No problem. It will happen.
 
Well, christianity is a diverse religion, it would depend on the particular branch of christianity. If we are talking about simply a pan-christian nation with the demographics of the US I dont know if Catholics would necessarily love it, because even as the largest single denomination The fundamentalist protestants and quasi-christian branches arnt known for their fondness of the “Papists”.

Sense this is a Catholic forum ill go with a Catholic theoretical state.

Obviously the papacy would hold great sway even if not the direct political authority, and I think a Catholic state would be more likely of having some form of monarchy because of the popes historical authority to crown kings in the name of God, something the protestants generally dont have. Whether its a powerful authoritarian monarchy or a constitutional one possibly even on the level of England with the royalty holding no real power outside of PR. that would probably depend again on the establishment of such nation. Its also possible (though unlikely with todays church) that the churches structure becomes the government, with Bishops acting as governors over their assigned diocese.

There would obviously be no gay marriage, abortion, ect. which i wouldn’t agree with but wouldn’t realy bother me as they arnt issues that effect me. The real question is if all things Christians consider immoral would be illegal, and if the sort of “victimless crime” type of things like use of condoms would be illegal.

Also, the potential for some sort of religious repression is also a possibility. Would non-Catholics and non-Christians have religions rights? Would there be Catholic teaching in schools to non-Catholic kids? Would non-Catholic churches get tax exempt status? Would they even be allowed to exist? would non-Catholics or non-Christians even be allowed to live in the country? If not would they be deported? Imprisoned? forced to live in specific areas?

Personally, If i had to live in a "Christian nation: I would prefer it be a Catholic one, The church has come very far from the middle ages and become in my opinion one of if not the most open and accepting branch of Christianity. While you could not assure a “Christian” government would not become oppressive, I would certainly trust the Catholics to make my laws more than the Protestants.

That said, I despise the very idea of theocracy and state sanctioning of religion. I have no desire to form or live in a “pagan nation”, i want to live in a free one.
If there were a nation based on catholic moral principles, in my non expert opinion, non catholic’s would be allowed to practice their religion as long as they accept that laws will be based on catholic morality. I remember reading somewhere that in certain places in medieval Christendom non catholic parents were given the right to raise their children in their faith. I think this right was only given to jews but could be extended to other religions if such a nation ever existed. I agree that religious repression would be a very real possibility and would be one of the drawbacks of such a system.
Things Christians consider immoral would be illegal including birth control. I’m not sure how the details would fit together though.
 
When you say a Catholic nation, are you meaning a nation where the majority of people are Catholic, and where the government and laws are based on Catholicism? If yes, I would be very leery of this. The notion of making people adhere to Catholicism ‘by force’ is just as abhorrent as if it was any other religion.
I mean a nation with a large catholic majority with laws based on catholic morality and social doctrine. I did not mean that mandatory conversion to Catholicism would be a requirement just an acceptance of catholic morality being law of the land.
 
The black market always exists wherever people have needs which cannot be met legitimately. In a Catholic state, the most lucrative black market commodity would be condoms.
I totally agree. There are only 2 society’s with no black market, a impossible utopia and one where nothing is illegal.
 

Quote:
*Originally Posted by weller2 View Post
The black market always exists wherever people have needs which cannot be met legitimately. In a Catholic state, the most lucrative black market commodity would be condoms.​

I totally agree. There are only 2 society’s with no black market, a impossible utopia and one where nothing is illegal. *​

I’m sorry. I misunderstood. I thought the OP meant that the nation was full of 100% practicing devout Christians (or better still Catholics). I was thinking like… “heaven on earth”… almost… I think maybe we need to act like we need to bring heaven to earth as much as we expect God to… or in the very least … try…

“Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven”…
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skadi View Post
I totally agree. There are only 2 society’s with no black market, a impossible utopia and one where nothing is illegal.
What’s the difference? 😃 (kidding folks kidding)
That’s really what it is all about. The great American experiment. Can people handle freedom. The founding fathers recognized that that was the crux of the matter which is why the constitution and bill of rights are so careful to guard against the concentration of power and protect private rights issues.

Freedom is very Christian. Very Jesus. Very God (free will). But it requires LIVING out our Catholic Christian faith. Everyone. No one left behind. If we behave and are responsible, accountable, honest, fair, compassionate and hard working, smart working and God fearing - we can do this (successfully handle freedom)… OR… we can have bigger government, more prisons, more police, more laws, more political correctness, more mind and body control forced upon us… why? because it appears we can’t handle freedom and the great American experiment is a bust… OR is it ???
 
What about the rates of abortion in Latin America, where almost every country is Catholic and abortion is illegal? Per capita, the rates are higher than those in the U.S. and Canada, where it’s legal.

Should we use TFR to describe how Catholic a country is? Absolutely not. Fertility rates in a country drop after it industrializes. That happened in every country, well before abortion became legal.

I think there’s a big problem for this issue. Prior to industrialization, most people were farmers or agriculture workers. Having more kids meant getting more income. That was true over the entire course of Christian history until the 19th century, when for the first time, women could independently get income by working in a factory (look at the Lowell Mill Girls, who left farms to work in textile factories, for example – the same thing going on in China and Bangladesh today).

Prior to industrialization, the world was a very different place for women. In the earliest days of Christianity, the Church provided income for virgins and widows, who didn’t need to get married as a result. Otherwise, under the Julian laws of the Roman empire, virgins – both men and women – were heavily penalized, as were young widows who didn’t get married. The Roman Empire needed babies – and they forced women to become mothers. The city of Rome itself didn’t have enough babies to keep the population up, and depended on immigration to do so.

Child-bearing was a risky business for women in the ancient world. Just think of the number of episiotomies that women today get… now imagine that in the ancient world, prior to modern surgery, germ theory, or antibacterials. Women often died young, and men would frequently remarry, resulting in an often-large difference in age between husbands and wives. Only rich girls got educated, and most did not. Roman law only required that a wife had already had a period, and even marriages to prepubescent girls could be validated if it was later consummated after her first menses.

Christianity offered a different life for women. According to a study by Rodney Stark, Christian women in the Roman Empire were significantly less likely to be married by age 18 than were pagan women. Looking at the Church Fathers, many of them talk about orders of widows and orders of virgins, which suggests that the Church offered a reprise from the Russian Roulette of childbearing. Christian women, devoting themselves to Christ, had greater opportunity for learning than pagan women did.

One example of how women refraining from childbearing were admired in the ancient Christian world is the second-century “novela,” The Acts of Paul and Thecla. St. Thecla (recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church) was celebrated as a heroine for refusing to get married, and for her passionate devotion to Christ. People tried to force her to marry, but she refused, and stayed a virgin. That novela was extremely popular in early Christianity, to the point that devotion to St. Thecla is found extensively in archaeology of later centuries.

I take Thecla as a stark example of how wrong it is to say that TFR is a way to measure Catholicism. I think St. Thecla could be used in modern times to share the story of an ancient super-heroine saint who refused to use her body sexually as expected by the society in which she lived. In modern times, look at how teenage girls are pressured to “pay for love” by having sex by mainstream culture. Thecla could be an example of a strong woman who didn’t bow to that bargain, but who embraced the love of Christ and who walked her own path.

Overall, I don’t think Catholics should pressure women to get married and have kids. I think we should use Ignatian spirituality instead: asking what someone truly wants with their life, and finding the want that takes them to God. Too often, the pro-life movement in particular has suggested that having a big family is a sign of true devotion to the faith. To me, that looks like we’re becoming the Roman Emperors again, pressuring women to become mothers when they don’t feel the calling. Rejecting that calling has too often been presented as a black/white choice between becoming a big-family Catholic or a single Atheist. Thecla (and modern NFP) shows that a single, non-fertile person can be totally devoted to holiness.
Hmm, I have seen this pressure to marry more from Protestant denominations. Single men and women are usually not considered for positions of teaching or leadership since single life is considered as non-Christian. Women should always have a male head or male authority, either her father or husband. This is contrary to the position of the Catholic church which do not consider women as perpetual minors. Although, I have read a Catholic blogger state in one of his blogs, that in his vision of a Catholic nation, it would be illegal for a woman to be financially independent of a man. I don’t think however that this is the official position of the Church though.
 
Hmm, I have seen this pressure to marry more from Protestant denominations. Single men and women are usually not considered for positions of teaching or leadership since single life is considered as non-Christian. Women should always have a male head or male authority, either her father or husband. This is contrary to the position of the Catholic church which do not consider women as perpetual minors. Although, I have read a Catholic blogger state in one of his blogs, that in his vision of a Catholic nation, it would be illegal for a woman to be financially independent of a man. I don’t think however that this is the official position of the Church though.
As someone who intends on being a lay celibate I have noticed that there is definitely also strong de facto pressure on Catholics in the US and Canada to marry. I think the pressure is why there is such a vocations crisis in the States and Canada.

That blogger is definitely a heretic as that would in effect prevent the ancient and noble vocation of consecrated virgins which in fact predates religious orders from existing in that country. Get him to repent of his heresy if not, burning may be a necessary step in order to prevent him from preaching heresy although that is probably illegal in your jurisdiction. (I’m quote serious about him being a heretic and mostly joking about burning him).
 
Neighborhoods would be tight-knit, with people’s kids running around by themselves in the afternoons and evenings. Towns would be geometrically grown around the parish grounds in the middle, where there is held the sanctuary, parish center, library, school, and housing for the priest(s) and possibly some religious. There would be a substantially larger number of clergy, religious, celibate people, as well as a substantially larger number of people marrying fairly young. There would be a government security net to provide for people’s basic needs, but it would remain largely untapped due to unofficial material support coming individually from within communities. Pornography, contraceptives, abortion, divorce, and fake marriages would be illegal. There would be a fairly high standard of living from the solid work ethic, but productively would come to a standstill on Holy Days and everybody would meditate, relax, and gather together for fun and celebration. Pets would be around, but they’d be more uncommon due to the camaraderie of the society fulfilling people’s social needs. There would be a high life expectancy due to a modest diet and a lack of heavy alcohol and drugs, as well as low stress. There would be no need for police or military (unless there were other outsider nations).

That’s if everybody instantly grew up orthodox and devout 😛
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skadi View Post
I totally agree. There are only 2 society’s with no black market, a impossible utopia and one where nothing is illegal.

That’s really what it is all about. The great American experiment. Can people handle freedom. The founding fathers recognized that that was the crux of the matter which is why the constitution and bill of rights are so careful to guard against the concentration of power and protect private rights issues.

Freedom is very Christian. Very Jesus. Very God (free will). But it requires LIVING out our Catholic Christian faith. Everyone. No one left behind. If we behave and are responsible, accountable, honest, fair, compassionate and hard working, smart working and God fearing - we can do this (successfully handle freedom)… OR… we can have bigger government, more prisons, more police, more laws, more political correctness, more mind and body control forced upon us… why? because it appears we can’t handle freedom and the great American experiment is a bust… OR is it ???
Personally as an Anarcho-capitolist I believe the only morally justifiable government is one made of and ruling over consenting citizens. I believe all people have absolute self sovereignty. Not a perfect system, but the one I consider morally right. No matter how good ones intentions are, using force (or the threat thereof) to exact taxes or enforce laws against victimless crime is not morally justifiable in my oppinion. Voluntary interaction and contracts are the basis of a truly free society.
 
Personally as an Anarcho-capitolist I believe the only morally justifiable government is one made of and ruling over consenting citizens. I believe all people have absolute self sovereignty. Not a perfect system, but the one I consider morally right. No matter how good ones intentions are, using force (or the threat thereof) to exact taxes or enforce laws against victimless crime is not morally justifiable in my oppinion. Voluntary interaction and contracts are the basis of a truly free society.
As my mother the political scientist loves to say:
One person’s rights end where another person’s begin.
 
As someone who intends on being a lay celibate I have noticed that there is definitely also strong de facto pressure on Catholics in the US and Canada to marry. I think the pressure is why there is such a vocations crisis in the States and Canada.
Your point and mine both dovetail with a larger concern of mine. That is, that the hot button issues of sexuality have so captured and politicized many Catholics that the opposite of the evils they seek to counter are elevated to the point of idolatry. Life choices like yours, which I very much admire, are relegated to a second-class status behind the sacralized image of the big family with lots of kids. While I admire people who do end up having more than two kids, and their openness to God’s abundance, I don’t want that to be the only reference point as we confront the broader “culture of death.” To me, the politicization of the family has made sexuality a binary choice between “faithful and fertile” and “atheistic and miserly.” People like you are left out of the national dialogue, particularly among Protestants, to whom celibacy is considered weird and, as noted above, unchristian.
That blogger is definitely a heretic as that would in effect prevent the ancient and noble vocation of consecrated virgins which in fact predates religious orders from existing in that country. Get him to repent of his heresy if not, burning may be a necessary step in order to prevent him from preaching heresy although that is probably illegal in your jurisdiction. (I’m quote serious about him being a heretic and mostly joking about burning him).
The blogger is an example of the danger of hypersimplification. Women I know, who would never get an abortion, complain that the whole pro-life movement is based on the notion that women cannot be trusted to make moral decisions. Bloggers like that only raise the temperature and do absolutely nothing that actually bears the Kingdom of God in the world.
 
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