What Would Be a Just War?

[elt1956]

Anyone know how the church defines a “Just” War?

 

[CapIV]

Just Cause
Legitimate Authority must declare war.
Right Intention
Possibility of success.
LAST RESORT
There must be ample benefits compared to the evils that war causes.
May not kill non-combatants.
Proportional Means (can’t nuke a third world country)

I might be forgetting one.

 

[elt1956]

Just Cause
Legitimate Authority must declare war.
Right Intention
Possibility of success.
LAST RESORT
There must be ample benefits compared to the evils that war causes.
May not kill non-combatants.
Proportional Means (can’t nuke a third world country)

I might be forgetting one.

Another question. Do you think the Crusades were just?? I haven’t studied these very much, just beginning to be interested, but wonder what the Muslim side would say??? What do you think??? Peace.

 

[thistle]

Another question. Do you think the Crusades were just?? I haven’t studied these very much, just beginning to be interested, but wonder what the Muslim side would say??? What do you think??? Peace.

The Crusades were self-defence to try to take back the lands invaded and occupied by muslims.

 

[elt1956]

The Crusades were self-defence to try to take back the lands invaded and occupied by muslims.

Don’t mean to be a smart a…leck, but weren’t the Muslims in the Holy Land first??? Just asking. Peace.

 

[thistle]

Don’t mean to be a smart a…leck, but weren’t the Muslims in the Holy Land first??? Just asking. Peace.

When Moses led his people to the promised (by God) land there were no muslims. God gave the land to Israel and not to muslims or their ancestors.
Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism and so Jews and Christians are inextricably linked and must defend the Holy Land.

 

[elt1956]

When Moses led his people to the promised (by God) land there were no muslims. God gave the land to Israel and not to muslims or their ancestors.
Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism and so Jews and Christians are inextricably linked and must defend the Holy Land.

Well, I have always wondered about God’s attitude toward the rest of non-Jewish humanity in the Holy Land. Never will understand it. Sure wish I knew more of the history of the early middle east. I can see God being angered by idol worshipers and He did make a covenant with the Jews…, but as far as I can tell, the God of the Old Testament was an angry and vengeful God. Don’t think I like that perspective. Peace.

 

[bengal_fan]

The Crusades were self-defence to try to take back the lands invaded and occupied by muslims.

so why did the roman catholics slaughter the orthodox Christians on their way to the holy land?

 

[RWMorris]

so why did the roman catholics slaughter the orthodox Christians on their way to the holy land?

I believe that happened during the fourth crusade and was subsequently condemned and declared unjust by Rome.

How, indeed, will the church of the Greeks, no matter how severely she is beset with afflictions and persecutions, return into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See, when she has seen in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs? As for those who were supposed to be seeking the ends of Jesus Christ, not their own ends, who made their swords, which they were supposed to use against the pagans, drip with Christian blood, they have spared neither religion, nor age, nor sex. (…) They have even ripped silver plates from the altars and have hacked them to pieces among themselves. They violated the holy places and have carried off crosses and relics.

• Pope Innocent III

 

[elt1956]

Well, I have always wondered about God’s attitude toward the rest of non-Jewish humanity in the Holy Land. Never will understand it. Sure wish I knew more of the history of the early middle east. I can see God being angered by idol worshipers and He did make a covenant with the Jews…, but as far as I can tell, the God of the Old Testament was an angry and vengeful God. Don’t think I like that perspective. Peace.

When Moses led his people to the promised (by God) land there were no muslims. God gave the land to Israel and not to muslims or their ancestors.
Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism and so Jews and Christians are inextricably linked and must defend the Holy Land.

Okay, Muslims was the wrong term to use. There were no muslims at that time, but pagan people. I have difficulty reconciling the fifth commandment, “Thou shall not Kill”, with the Israelites understanding of God’s commandment to kill all who defended their homes, those who were there before the Israelites and didn’tr believe in the One God.

 

[goofyjim]

I have never found going to war to be a means of selfdefense. Therefore I follow the fifth commandment and find almost every war since WWII an unjust war.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Okay, Muslims was the wrong term to use. There were no muslims at that time, but pagan people. I have difficulty reconciling the fifth commandment, “Thou shall not Kill”, with the Israelites understanding of God’s commandment to kill all who defended their homes, those who were there before the Israelites and didn’tr believe in the One God.

I have come to understand the manner in which the Hebrews entered the Promised Land were maybe for purification reasons. If the Jews had only captured the people and not killed them they may have been seduced by the other cultures and polluted what God was separating the Jews for. He intended to keep them as pure in belief as possible and had them remove competing ideologies. The golden calf event before Moses returned from Sinai shows they were easily swayed. In some OT stories the Jews killed men, women, children and livestock. I think this was for two reasons; 1. purification 2. they did not kill for profit except the land that God promised. In a number of ways God made clear what they were to get was to come completly from Him, not by conquest from their hands.

The Jews were not commanded to convert others by force and once the 12 tribes established themselves an made Israel they did not expand much if at all. As far as I can remember that was the only time God gave such a commandemnet to kill others like that and the period was limited and specific. I will not question too much if it is Just War because of the promise but conclude there is no such commandment upon us now.

WW2 and the US Revolutionary war I think meet the Just War criteria. Defensive wars usually meet the criteria but I cannot think of an offensive war that I would call Just.

 

[elt1956]

I have come to understand the manner in which the Hebrews entered the Promised Land were maybe for purification reasons. If the Jews had only captured the people and not killed them they may have been seduced by the other cultures and polluted what God was separating the Jews for. He intended to keep them as pure in belief as possible and had them remove competing ideologies. The golden calf event before Moses returned from Sinai shows they were easily swayed. In some OT stories the Jews killed men, women, children and livestock. I think this was for two reasons; 1. purification 2. they did not kill for profit except the land that God promised. In a number of ways God made clear what they were to get was to come completly from Him, not by conquest from their hands.

The Jews were not commanded to convert others by force and once the 12 tribes established themselves an made Israel they did not expand much if at all. As far as I can remember that was the only time God gave such a commandemnet to kill others like that and the period was limited and specific. I will not question too much if it is Just War because of the promise but conclude there is no such commandment upon us now.

WW2 and the US Revolutionary war I think meet the Just War criteria. Defensive wars usually meet the criteria but I cannot think of an offensive war that I would call Just.

I agree. WW2 and the US Revolutionary War meet the Just War criteria. I do have problems with the US Civil War though, but I guess that discussion is for another time and placel. Peace.

 

[elt1956]

I have never found going to war to be a means of selfdefense. Therefore I follow the fifth commandment and find almost every war since WWII an unjust war.

Yeah, little things like politics and greed get in the way of altruistic motives. Peace.

 

[RWMorris]

I agree. WW2 and the US Revolutionary War meet the Just War criteria. I do have problems with the US Civil War though, but I guess that discussion is for another time and placel. Peace.

I have the same reservation concerning the Civil War and Lincoln. I will not bash Lincoln, he did what he thought was necessary, but Thomas Jefferson felt that force should not be used to maintain the union:

If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.

• Thomas Jefferson

But it is hard to question the motives of those how fought:

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

• Battle Hymn of the Republic

 

[elt1956]

I have the same reservation concerning the Civil War and Lincoln. I will not bash Lincoln, he did what he thought was necessary, but Thomas Jefferson felt that force should not be used to maintain the union:

But it is hard to question the motives of those how fought:

Lincoln and Jefferson had two different idealogies regarding government. Maybe they both were right??? Peace.

Oh and that song??? I know you know where it originated??? Right??? John Brown’s body and all that? Love, that song. Peace again.

Oh and motives. There were motives all over the place. Some of the boys didn’t have any idea what they were fighting for. I had a GGUncle of seventeen who fought in the Civil War, on the side of the “right” of course. He came from a very poor family and by reading his letters to his Grandpappy, I think his main concern was being able to buy dresses for his sisters. Bless him. Died of smallpox. Peace again and again.

 

[bengal_fan]

i am curious how the american revolution was a just war?

i am also curious how the civil war was not?

the first one had more to do with money and property.

the second one at least had an element of freeing an entire race of people from slavery (although not the main goal, it was a factor).

 

[RWMorris]

i am curious how the american revolution was a just war?

i am also curious how the civil war was not?

the first one had more to do with money and property.

the second one at least had an element of freeing an entire race of people from slavery (although not the main goal, it was a factor).

The revolutionary war was a just war because it freed people from an oppressor. (Read the Declaration of Independence; it’s all in there.)

Ditto for the civil war. Who says it was not a just war? Maybe some revisionists here on CA, but the Church never said it was unjust. There may have been some unjust actions (debatable). The last war the Church declared unjust was the fourth crusade (1202–1204 AD).

 

[Verisimilitude]

i am curious how the american revolution was a just war?

I consider it Just because it was a legitimate right of self determination by the people who were being denied that right by England. What made it Just is the Declaration of Independence- we made the declaration before waging the war in self defense.

i am also curious how the civil war was not?

I consider it unjust because because there were other options available and unexplored. England and Spain did not fight a war to end slavery and other than the human tragedy of slavery the Civil War was about money and property more than any other reason.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Maybe some revisionists here on CA, but the Church never said it was unjust. There may have been some unjust actions (debatable). The last war the Church declared unjust was the fourth crusade (1202–1204 AD).

Please provide the list of proclamations the Church has made regarding all wars declaring the just and unjust wars.

re·vi·sion·ist /rɪˈvɪʒənɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-vizh-uh-nist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an advocate of revision, esp. of some political or religious doctrine.
2. a reviser.
3. any advocate of doctrines, theories, or practices that depart from established authority or doctrine.
–adjective 4. of or pertaining to revisionists or revisionism.
5. attempting to reevaluate and restate the past based on newly acquired standards.

re·vi·sion·ism (rĭ-vĭzh’ə-nĭz’əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
Advocacy of the revision of an accepted, usually long-standing view, theory, or doctrine, especially a revision of historical events and movements.

Think of those who challanged the flat earth, or earth centric theory, witches and invisable germs or the right of slavery or any such notion that has a long accepted by the population of any given age. Some times…often times the accpeted view of things held as absolute are wrong. A very good example is what the Jews thought the Messiah was going to be.