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ChristMyLife
Guest
He would say “wow, look how much these rituals took from the Jewish Synagogue and Temple rituals which I knew and loved in my own lifetime!”
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PennyinCanada
Guest
Hi Dirk! this is a Catholic Answers forum and people who are learning come here to ask questions. Sometimes the person asking the question is 14 years old. Try not to be too hard on them.
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normdplume
Guest
You mean like celebrating his birth on an old pagan holiday? 
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JimG
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A couple of thoughts. Jesus was a devout and observant Jew who attended Temple and Synagogue and observed the rituals perfectly. Judaism is a liturgical religion, replete with candles, incense, vestments, and set prayers and feast days and penitential practices. Catholicism arose from and fulfilled the Old Covenant and so carries over much of its liturgy and ritual.
As to ritual in itself, my experience is that most families have their own particular rituals, ways of doing things as a family which seldom vary. Grace before meals, bedtime rituals, ways of eating together, a lot of things which unite them as a family.
As to ritual in itself, my experience is that most families have their own particular rituals, ways of doing things as a family which seldom vary. Grace before meals, bedtime rituals, ways of eating together, a lot of things which unite them as a family.
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normdplume
Guest
There were other examples that I’ve noticed over time, but your advice is sound.
Thanks
Dirk
Thanks
Dirk
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ChristMyLife
Guest
No I mean like the use of candles and incense in worship, priests and deacons being vested in ornate vestments, singing and chanting of Psalmody, reading of the Scriptures, sermons being preached, the use of precious metals and jewels, an altar, and the list could go on and on and on.
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normdplume
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JimG/ChristMyLife, thanks for the details. Very interesting. I always wondered where all of that came from.
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ChristMyLife
Guest
Grab a Bible and read the 3 Torah Books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy.
This is what you’ll see being described: (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
You think the Catholic Church is heavy on ritual worship? Ha! The level of ritual worship which Jesus Himself worshipped by would blow the Catholic Church out of the water.
And never once - not once - did Jesus say anything against ritual, liturgical temple or synagogue worship.
He spoke against certain Jewish traditions, but at same time the way he himself worshipped was liturgical.
When St. Peter in the book of Acts goes and “prays at such and such hour” what do you think that means and what it corresponds to in Catholic liturgy? It means he was praying the Psalms and prescribed liturgical prayers of that particular hour… Just like how the Church today prays certain Psalms and prayers at certain hours.
There is absolutely nothing done in Catholic liturgical ritual which cannot be traced in some way back to the Jewish Synagogue, Jewish Temple, and/or Hebrew Bible.
Which makes perfect sense considering the Mass is the fulfilment of Jewish Synagogue and Temple worship, and the Catholic Church sees itself as the New Temple of the New Covenant.
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JimG
Guest
I would add that children especially love ritual. If you have fixed ways of doing things as a family, such as a bedtime ritual, they want it done the same way every night; it gives them a sense of security.
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Sean
Guest
Everything the priest does means something. This is especially true at the Latin mass nothing in any mass said was not just thrown together in a day.
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joeybaggz
Guest
Let’s see that is the pagan holiday of Saturnalia. When the sun begins its journey back from exile? When the light returns to the earth?You mean like celebrating his birth on an old pagan holiday?
Gee, Jesus’ incarnation is the return of the light to the world. December 25. A few days after the winter solstice. Taking a pagan idea and infusing it with a Christian rationale. A celebration of light.
I’ll take it your statement was a legitimate observation, and not a snarky and smarmy remark. See how charitable we are?
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Wesrock
Guest
Speaking of that, John Chrysostom actually argues that, based on the opening chapters of Luke, Zechariah was serving around the Feast of Tabernacles, and if we count from John’s conception to the Annunication based on the timeline provided, Jesus would have been conceived in late March, and there was also the traditional thinking that prophets died around the day of their conception, also probably late March. Anyway, nine months later is… well what do you know? Late December!You mean like celebrating his birth on an old pagan holiday?
Besides that, nothing wrong with redirecting a pagan festival towards something proper, and nothing wrong with taking the cosmic imagery of God’s created work that Christ’s light was revealed to the world at his birth when the night was longest.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
To take it one step further, I was just reading how St. John the Baptist’s feast day is June 24 which is right around the summer solstice, when the days begin to get shorter, and Jesus’ Nativity is Dec 25 which is right around the winter solstice, when days begin to get longer.
John the Baptist said of Jesus, “He must increase and I must decrease.” Sure enough, the daylight decreases after John’s day and increases after Jesus’ day. Isn’t that neat?
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Wesrock
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Hmmm… six months before Jesus, and Jesus was conceived in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy…joeybaggz:
To take it one step further, I was just reading how St. John the Baptist’s feast day is June 24
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normdplume
Guest
Yes, it was a legitimate observation.I’ll take it your statement was a legitimate observation, and not a snarky and smarmy remark. See how charitable we are?
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joeybaggz
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Questionable………………………
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JanetF
Guest
The key is “empty” rituals. Catholic rituals are not empty. I will grant you that some people get wound up about details sometimes (myself included…holding hands during Our Father, etc), but I believe Jesus can see what is in our hearts and if our intentions are to glorify God then all is good.
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JanetF
Guest
I studied history in college. The Conversion of Europe included incorporating some pagan festivals into the Church’s liturgical year.
And, aren’t feast days of saints usually the date they died (or were canonized), unless specifically chosen for another date (i.e., JPII)
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Wesrock
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And if the pagan festival fell on a particular saint’s feast day, just dedicate the normal festivities to that saint instead.Wesrock:
I studied history in college. The Conversion of Europe included incorporating some pagan festivals into the Church’s liturgical year.
And, aren’t feast days of saints usually the date they died (or were canonized), unless specifically chosen for another date (i.e., JPII)
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Le_Cracquere
Guest
I get the impression that in Christ’s day, people who thought they knew what He would say–even His disciples–ended up batting .000. He usually ended up saying something wholly unexpected, and that managed to infuriate & disturb all sides. So an argument that starts with “What would Christ say about x?” is probably off on the wrong foot already.
With that said, it seems to me that Christ’s issue with the Pharisees weren’t their rituals, but their emphases. Were their rituals expressions of their devotion to God, expressions of their personal superiority to the less devoted, or ends unto themselves? (The answer probably varied depending on the individual Pharisee.)
With that said, it seems to me that Christ’s issue with the Pharisees weren’t their rituals, but their emphases. Were their rituals expressions of their devotion to God, expressions of their personal superiority to the less devoted, or ends unto themselves? (The answer probably varied depending on the individual Pharisee.)
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