What would happen if wine was added to the Precious Body?

[japhy]

Perhaps we could consider the Precious Blood to be a different “species”, so to speak, from wine. We know that when the Precious Blood no longer has the accidents of wine, then it is also no longer the Precious Blood of our Lord. But when we say that, we are just using an observable thing to describe an unobservable thing. What we really mean to say is that when the Precious Blood is no longer present, the Precious Blood is no longer present. So, recalling that the Precious Blood is really a different species than wine, we must conclude that if water can dilute it, then unconsecrated wine must also dilute it.

But the defined doctrine of the Church states that as long as the appearances remain, the Real Presence remains. The Precious Blood (under the appearance of wine) remains in the consecrated wine so long as that consecrated wine looks like wine. Mixing a lot of water with the consecrated wine removes the appearance of wine, but mixing a lot of wine with the consecrated wine does not remove the appearance of wine. It seems reasonable to say, then, that the consecrated wine remains as the Real Presence, but the unconsecrated wine with which it has been mixed is not the Real Presence “by association”.

 

[Spirithound]

But the defined doctrine of the Church states that as long as the appearances remain, the Real Presence remains. The Precious Blood (under the appearance of wine) remains in the consecrated wine so long as that consecrated wine looks like wine. Mixing a lot of water with the consecrated wine removes the appearance of wine, but mixing a lot of wine with the consecrated wine does not remove the appearance of wine. It seems reasonable to say, then, that the consecrated wine remains as the Real Presence, but the unconsecrated wine with which it has been mixed is not the Real Presence “by association”.

You reject, as I do, “consecration by association”, but still affirm that the Precious Blood can still exist when mixed with much new wine. But wouldn’t the accidents of the Precious Blood simply be overcome with the new wine? The amount of water that would dilute wine so that it is no longer wine must also be the amount of wine needed to mix another wine so that it no longer exists too.

 

[Rickwood]

I know in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer there is a ritual to, as it were, emergency consecrate more Bread and Wine should the need arise. I do not know how Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox address the issue though.

No such thing…

 

[Rickwood]

This thread has me thinking of something I once observe, if I can do my memory any justice. From what I recall, I once attended a Mass in which they ran out of the Eucharist before everyone had received. So the priest retrieved more hosts, did a fairly quick, quiet blessing over them, and then continued to distribute to the remainder of the congregation.

Was this a valid consecration for those extra hosts?

No it was not, unless he said an entire Mass.

The Church warns about attempting to confect the Eucharist outside of the Mass.

 

[japhy]

No it was not, unless he said an entire Mass. The Church warns about attempting to confect the Eucharist outside of the Mass.

But the context here is not “outside of the Mass”; rather, during the distribution of Communion during Mass, the priest performed an “emergency consecration” of more hosts. I don’t know if this is legal or not, but I worry: the Church says that one species must not be consecrated without the other, but I don’t know if that applies in this case, since both the bread and wine have already been consecrated… this is just an additional consecration, after the fact, of more bread.

This is, as they say, “above my paygrade”. I don’t have ready access to the resources I would expect I need to make a decision… and it’s not my decision to make.

HOWEVER, if I were the priest in question, I would either have a) divided the hosts in my ciborium when I noticed them running low, or b) informed those parishioners who could not receive that they should make a spiritual Communion, and remind them that they had, in fact, fulfilled their obligation of assisting at Mass.

 

[Rickwood]

If you mixed more than 50% wine with the Precious Blood (51% wine/49% Precious Blood) The Real Presence would be no longer. No one should ever mix the Precious Blood with any other substance.

Let me be extremely specific in my response this time.

First the 51/49% theory has yet to be backed-up by Church documentation.

Second, and far more important, only under gravely exigent circumstances (itself a serious requirement) would mixing wine (or water) with the Precious Blood cause the Real Presence to be present no longer. That’s not mentioned in the posting above and it’s a serious omission.

As it is written it would suggest one could dispose of “excess” Precious Blood simply by mixing it with a larger quantity of wine and that’s dangerous. I would suggest that if one did that, outside of gravely exigent circumstances, that the Real Presence WOULD NOT cease to be present.

It would be interesting to get an expert opinion on this matter.

 

[japhy]

You reject, as I do, “consecration by association”, but still affirm that the Precious Blood can still exist when mixed with much new wine. But wouldn’t the accidents of the Precious Blood simply be overcome with the new wine?

The “accidents” are those of the wine, not the Precious Blood, which is present in substance but not in appearance. Thus, while the accidents of wine remain in the consecrated wine, the Real Presence (and the Precious Blood thereby) is there. Adding more wine does not remove the accidents; adding more water does, because wine mixed with plentiful water no longer has the appearance of wine.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I know in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer there is a ritual to, as it were, emergency consecrate more Bread and Wine should the need arise. I do not know how Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox address the issue though.

There are instructions for this in the Russian Liturgikon. Basically, the priest cuts out another Lamb, or puts more wine and water in the chalice, and says the parts of the Anaphora that refer to the species needed.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Let me be extremely specific in my response this time.

First the 51/49% theory has yet to be backed-up by Church documentation.

Second, and far more important, only under gravely exigent circumstances (itself a serious requirement) would mixing wine (or water) with the Precious Blood cause the Real Presence to be present no longer. That’s not mentioned in the posting above and it’s a serious omission.

As it is written it would suggest one could dispose of “excess” Precious Blood simply by mixing it with a larger quantity of wine and that’s dangerous. I would suggest that if one did that, outside of gravely exigent circumstances, that the Real Presence WOULD NOT cease to be present.

It would be interesting to get an expert opinion on this matter.

We seem to be in some agreement.

The 51/49% was only my way of expressing the minimal need for a greater quantity if water or wine, then the remaining Precious Blood.

I did say “No one should ever mix the Precious Blood with any other substance.” (water or wine) Meaning that the remaining Precious Blood should always be consumed, except when serious reason exists to dilute it and change it’s substance.

 

[Aramis]

Brother Rich misses the point…

The Real Presence remains until there are no visibly discernible particles remaining, for the Body.

For the Precious Blood, the ablutions with wine (or water, for that matter) are made, normally, to a visibly empty chalice, or one with but a few tiny drops… a means of ensuring that nothing remains, not a dilution.

The ablution, be it water or wine, is to remove the last visible bits, and is normally consumed, just in case.

(and yes, the subtle pun within the above is intentional.)

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Brother Rich misses the point…

The Real Presence remains until there are no visibly discernible particles remaining, for the Body.

For the Precious Blood, the ablutions with wine (or water, for that matter) are made, normally, to a visibly empty chalice, or one with but a few tiny drops… a means of ensuring that nothing remains, not a dilution.

The ablution, be it water or wine, is to remove the last visible bits, and is normally consumed, just in case.

(and yes, the subtle pun within the above is intentional.)

So you say the change of substance is caused only with the change of physical appearance.

 

[Aramis]

So you say the change of substance is caused only with the change of physical appearance.

Many theologians have said so. The precious body and blood only exist while their accidents are perceptible.

The Ablutions are not “reducing concentration” as simply allowing consumption of the remains. (or permitting them to be removed to the sacrarium.)

I didn’t note down the URL, but the USCCB had a note on this very issue…

Also, note the Liturgy of the Presanctified gifts of the Byzantine Catholic Churches. Like their Orthodox brethren, the very limited amounts of the Precious Blood on the Precious Body are rewet with wine for communion; in so doing, the precious blood is disolved and shared; it’s far less than the 50% you state as minimum.