What would happen to a priest if

[thirdn6]

Don’t you know that you are a temple of the living God? Don’t defile your self… Priests know this by heart.
But, hey, if it wakes up early in the morning you know you’re still flesh and blood… and it’s natural! Be glad about it. You know your blood still circulates…
Just let him go back to sleep… alone.

 

[ralphinal]

First, everyone calm down.

Now, if the statistics are correct for Spain, and I doubt they are because I know enough about human behavior to question that 95% of any group does any single voluntary thing, we must still consider the differences in culture. According to some studies that I have read, a HUGE problem in Africa is connected to priests having girl-friends. Though it is forbidden by the Church, it is more accepted by some cultures there and sort of ignored. This is still problematic for several reasons. Besides, I would love to see the actual research figures and how the study was constructed.

Barring an addiction or other problem, a majority of men who have issues with this eventually decrease the amount of times that they do it. Part of it is getting older. Part of it may be an increase in maturity.

I read over the Snipe website. First, I despise any website showing figures with no footnotes or information on where and how the numbers were discovered, Second, the dude is a former priest who has left the order and gotten married. IT may not matter, but it does throw a flag to me that he may have issues with the Church. He is a psychologist (that it what my undergrad was), so it is more likely that he sees sex and sexual issues as normal and repressing them as abnormal (not uncommon for someone in the modern field). Nicely done site with statistics with no information on how they were gathered, margin of error, or any of that.

 

[Peter_J]

At this point, I’m not prepared to draw any definite conclusions about the various statistics I’ve heard – even the 4% figure that came from the Bishops’ Commission could be an over-estimate.

Here’s something else:

Cardinal Hummes said that the aim was to put a definitive stop to a scandal that had damaged the image of the Church and forced US archdioceses, including Boston and Los Angeles, to pay millions of dollars in compensation to the victims. He said that the scandal was exceptionally serious, although it was probably caused by “no more than 1 per cent” of the 400,000 Catholic priests around the world.

That’s from the January 7, 2008, Times article Pope calls for continuous prayer to rid priesthood of paedophilia – which I recommend reading, along with the Catholic Church not only religion facing abuse problems, expert says, a 2002 article by the Catholic News Service.

 

[ralphinal]

Why not use some medications that kill the sexual desire or at least lower it.

Not that this is Church teaching, but I can think of several issues.

First, it removes free-will. All people should have the ability to exorcise self-control.

Second, there may be other side effects.

Third, for someone with a broken sexual system, i.e. someone into children, just because there is no arousal does not mean that there is no desire or drive. They may not feel the urge to act, but they may still have issues

 

[Sublime_Prince]

Well I think a lot of good things come out of this.

It tells us our ministers or priests are just as capable of falling into sin and doing awful things like us.

When I go to church I don’t assume anymore the priest or minister is not committing sins. He probably is. There is a good chance he is even not being 100% faithful to his wife or to his vow of celibacy if he is a priest.

I think though just as a priest forgives those who confesses their sins to him, we should try our best to forgive his sins.

It shows that clergy are just like you and I and to assume a priest would never do the sins we may commit is acting foolish.

 

[ralphinal]

Well I think a lot of good things come out of this.

It tells us our ministers or priests are just as capable of falling into sin and doing awful things like us.

When I go to church I don’t assume anymore the priest or minister is not committing sins. He probably is. There is a good chance he is even not being 100% faithful to his wife or to his vow of celibacy if he is a priest.

I think though just as a priest forgives those who confesses their sins to him, we should try our best to forgive his sins.

It shows that clergy are just like you and I and to assume a priest would never do the sins we may commit is acting foolish.

This is one of the most mature, insightful posts that I have seen from you. No one is perfect, but that does not mean that we cannot try or that we should not hold people to higher standards. You do have the right idea here: everyone on earth today sins.

 

[inJESUS]

Well I think a lot of good things come out of this.

It tells us our ministers or priests are just as capable of falling into sin and doing awful things like us.

When I go to church I don’t assume anymore the priest or minister is not committing sins. He probably is. There is a good chance he is even not being 100% faithful to his wife or to his vow of celibacy if he is a priest.

I think though just as a priest forgives those who confesses their sins to him, we should try our best to forgive his sins.

It shows that clergy are just like you and I and to assume a priest would never do the sins we may commit is acting foolish.

that’s a good standard for discussions.

the previous 4 pages were disgraceful.

 

[Contarini]

Ask Ralph, but yes, there were studies that indicated a greater number of Protestant ministers were involved in sexual misconduct (the study I was shown dealt with paedophilia but as I do not have the study to hand I will not try to quote numbers) thank their Catholic counterparts.

Isn’t the study about accusations? Given that we know that many Catholic families agreed to keep quiet because of their reverence for the Church, it’s quite possible that far more accusations (true or false) are made in Protestant churches without there being more actual offenders. Protestants are a fractious lot and do not have the kind of reverence for the church and clergy that Catholics have traditionally had. (They do have a great deal of this reverence, and it has been abused in many of the same ways, but it’s relatively much less.)

The figure you cite is still very significant, because if nothing else it smashes to bits (if true) the notion that this is a uniquely Catholic problem. But you need to be clear that this is a statistic about accusations, not about offenses.

Edwin

 

[LDNCatholic]

Isn’t the study about accusations? Given that we know that many Catholic families agreed to keep quiet because of their reverence for the Church, it’s quite possible that far more accusations (true or false) are made in Protestant churches without there being more actual offenders. Protestants are a fractious lot and do not have the kind of reverence for the church and clergy that Catholics have traditionally had. (They do have a great deal of this reverence, and it has been abused in many of the same ways, but it’s relatively much less.)

The figure you cite is still very significant, because if nothing else it smashes to bits (if true) the notion that this is a uniquely Catholic problem. But you need to be clear that this is a statistic about accusations, not about offenses.

Edwin

I cannot be entirely sure but to the best of my memory the study I saw indicated convictions.

However this was over a year ago and I would not like to speculate. In any case, one is two many, clergy, family member, stranger or whatever, it is an evil that needs to be purged from every corner of society.

 

[ralphinal]

Isn’t the study about accusations? Given that we know that many Catholic families agreed to keep quiet because of their reverence for the Church, it’s quite possible that far more accusations (true or false) are made in Protestant churches without there being more actual offenders. Protestants are a fractious lot and do not have the kind of reverence for the church and clergy that Catholics have traditionally had. (They do have a great deal of this reverence, and it has been abused in many of the same ways, but it’s relatively much less.)

The figure you cite is still very significant, because if nothing else it smashes to bits (if true) the notion that this is a uniquely Catholic problem. But you need to be clear that this is a statistic about accusations, not about offenses.

Edwin

I did not spend much time studying sexual abuse issues in Psychology. I do know that the rule of thumb is for every one accusation there are 4 times the offences. So, if, in fact only 2% of the priests were accused, it means that 8% were guilty of something. THat does not take into account the multiple offenders.

I have seen both statistics, but by and large, the numbers seem to be for accusations. One priest with one accusation counts the same as one with 100 in these numbers.

 

[RobHom]

Are you really defending your Church?

Yes. Against slanderous and wrongfully motivated as well as deviantly motivated bovine feces oriented nonsense.

Just turn your other cheak, renounce the world, take refuge in a cave thus defend Jesus, instead.

In other words…turn the other cheek, 7 X 7 X 7 X 7 X 7 … ad infinitum… then hide in a cave… where I would live alone… defending Christ from “whom”? Kind of a weird suggestion…no?

Thanks anyway, but I’ll “pass”…

 

[RobHom]

that’s a good standard for discussions.

I agree, and it should be kept that way… “A GOOD STANDARD for discussion”.

the previous 4 pages were disgraceful.

Yes, they probably were. I apologize for possibly having offending some of you. But when I feel that a “backfire” is warranted, I am prone to setting one. If that offends someone…to some I apologize, and to others, I sincerely pray that they “get the point”.

There is nothing lower and less “classless” than to level lowbrow and pointless accusations…“ad nauseum” against the Church, especially when one lives in a glass house.

There are acceptable standards, and there are unacceptable standards. My posting of that link served one purpose and one purpose only…that no religion or denomination is exempt from the frailties of humanity…and that no-one is in any position to take the “high-road” of being “holier or better than thou”.

I have been a Catholic for 58 years, and I have never once in my life been “abused” sexually or otherwise by any member of Catholic Clergy…and I am so tired of the same old tired tripe being foisted incessantly by disingenuous individuals.

Standing firm and defending my faith and my Church…is something I will never “apologize” for…:knight1:

 

[Ruthie]

Ralph, my friend, you said,

I do know that the rule of thumb is for every one accusation there are 4 times the offences. So, if, in fact only 2% of the priests were accused, it means that 8% were guilty of something.

I disagree, up to a point. It is probably closer to the truth to say that the offenders committed 4 times as many offenses than they were accused of.

The real truth is somewhere in between, I’m sure. That’s the point I disagree up to.

Ruthie

 

[Peter_J]

Ralph, my friend, you said,

I do know that the rule of thumb is for every one accusation there are 4 times the offences. So, if, in fact only 2% of the priests were accused, it means that 8% were guilty of something.

I disagree, up to a point. It is probably closer to the truth to say that the offenders committed 4 times as many offenses than they were accused of.

The real truth is somewhere in between, I’m sure. That’s the point I disagree up to.

Ruthie

Hmm … you both make good points.

On a slightly different note, I think it’s also important to have a proper balance between, on the one hand obsessing over statistical accuracy, and on the other hand a kind of “it doesn’t matter whether there have been 1 case of abuse or 1000 cases of abuse” attitude.

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph, my friend, you said,

I do know that the rule of thumb is for every one accusation there are 4 times the offences. So, if, in fact only 2% of the priests were accused, it means that 8% were guilty of something.

I disagree, up to a point. It is probably closer to the truth to say that the offenders committed 4 times as many offenses than they were accused of.

The real truth is somewhere in between, I’m sure. That’s the point I disagree up to.

Ruthie

I should have said for each incedent reported, 4 times as many are not. It is why the figures for date rape on college campuses say that 15% of girls are raped yet councilling groups put the number closer to 60%. Each accused that was guilty may have been worse than that.

Peter is also right that we must both keep it in perspective while not dismissing the fact that one is too many.

 

[Greg27]

I assume if he were a Catholic priest, he would be obliged to treat it as sinful and seek God’s forgiveness through the sacrament of confession. The church officially teaches that masturbation and using pornography for sexual gratification are moral evils, and from memory, the CCC calls masturbation an act that is ‘gravely disordered’ and pornography is ‘gravely contrary to chastity and the dignity of the persons involved.’ I imagine the penance imposed on a priest for this would be greater than that for a lay person, because the priest has certain serious obligations and duties that come with the office of sacramental priesthood, one of which is to be an example of holiness and moral integrity.

I personally don’t think masturbating using porn is the best way to deal with sexual desires in every circumstance; I think sex should be bound and expressed in a loving and committed relationship between two people. I also think marriage is the best environment in which this is to happen, and masturbation is in a way, selfish in some circumstances and can close one off to being open to sharing yourself in a loving way with others in loving relationships. While a priest may understandably have sexual urges, they should learn some self control and focus more on fulfulling their duties and also do their best to live up to the vows they have made.

Under canon law, this is probably not the sort of thing that would get a priest dismissed from the clerical state (laicisation) or excommunicated. However, he would be obliged to not take communion until sacramental confession, as he has in the eyes of the church committed serious sin, and the law of the church is you can’t take communion when in a state of serious sin. (Masturbation and porn use are seen as serious sins in the eyes of the church). This would be a problem if he had to celebrate Mass, as priests normally take holy communion after they have consecrated the bread and wine during Mass.