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Deacon_Ed_B
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Did you ever think about this? What would it be like and where would we be if Mary had said no at the annunciation.?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Dauphin
Guest
There would be no redemption. That’s why the Mother of God is Co-Redemptrix. As St. Irenaeus said, she is the “cause of our salvation”.
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catharina
Guest
Mary, Gate of heaven, pray for us.
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eelpis
Guest
We’d all go to hell. There would be no salvation.
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
[sign] Amen [/sign] brother Dauphin.
I saw this on a bumper sticker:
[sign]No Mary, no Jesus. Know Mary, know Jesus.[/sign]
So true.
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masterjedi747
Guest
Haven’t given it much serious thought, not really… I mean, it’s just one of those questions that really has no “true” answer. Not to mention the fact that it opens up nearly-bottomless can of equally wild questions in the same area, such as “if God knew she would say no, would He have even given her all of those extraordinary graces in the first place?”, etc… :whacky:
But to answer your question a little more directly: I’ll admit that my initial reaction is “we’d all be screwed”… but then thinking about it, really, I don’t know.
For one, can you really see God saying “oh well, I gave them all their second chance, and she said no… they can all just go to Hell now for all I care”…? My reason seems to tell me that, granting this almost-absurd question, God would have tried again. He didn’t give up after Adam and Eve, and I don’t think He ever would have ever given up.
…which brings us to one of the quasi-absurdities built-in to the question: if an omnipotent God did decide to redeem mankind in a certain manner (as He obviously did) do you really think He could have failed to carry it out?
In an incomprehensible way, it ends up seeming as if God chose Mary from all eternity, and she really couldn’t refuse… kind of like how God knows what you will choose to do in the future, and therefore in a way it’s true that you must choose to do it (because if you didn’t, God’s knowledge of the future would be in error, which is absurd)…
And then that boils down even more into all sorts of stuff regarding free will, predestination of the saints, etc… all of which doesn’t get you very far in the grand scheme of things, since the very real fact is that Mary didn’t say no.
So instead of “did you ever think about this?”, maybe the question should be something more like “are you sure you really want to think about this”?
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
To think about this and to ponder the consequences is to come to a better understanding of what Mary really did for each of us.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Brenda_V
Guest
And if she had said no would God not have asked someone else? I have pondered this and decided it was a good thing that this young woman had enough piety about her to be able to be in the presence of an Angel and not be so afraid as to answer in the positive!
Brenda V.
Brenda V.
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redrosetea
Guest
Perhaps Mary was created so pure she could have never said no…now tell me this…if Mary had said no, would she be the only human in Heaven?
She had never sinned, nor had the stain of original sin…She could have heaven all to herself and God all to herself couldn’t she?
She had never sinned, nor had the stain of original sin…She could have heaven all to herself and God all to herself couldn’t she?
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GerardP
Guest
I find this speculation to be a little bit offputting, how can one say “no” to God and have it be a neutral act? but with that said, Mary would not have merited Heaven since Heaven is not the right of anyone, even if they are sinless. Adam and Eve were created for Eden, not for Heaven. That is why God allowed the Fall so, He could raise Man up higher than his natural state and share His own Divinity with His creations. That is why the ancient Easter Hymn says, 'Oh happy fault…"
She possibly would have been either left on Earth immortal or if she would somehow have died, been sent to the Limbo of the Fathers until a second Immaculate Conception gave her Fiat and Redemption would be fulfilled as promised.
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GerardP
Guest
Ding! Ding! Ding!..a winner! Bishop Sheen described the “first” Immaculate Conception happened in the mind of God.
Proverbs Chapter 8 is held by many to be Mary as a thought in the mind of God.
*22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. 23 I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. 24 The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: 25 The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:
26 He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: 28 When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: 29 When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when he balanced the foundations of the earth; 30 **I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times; **
31 Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men. 32 Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors. 35** He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord: **
36 But he that shall sin against me, shall hurt his own soul. All that hate me love death.*
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SacredHeartFan
Guest
there would be a different person and mary would be struck by lightning.
we might be saying Hail Lisa, full of grace…
(not really though because Mary said yes and for that I am thankful to her!)
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SenorSalsa
Guest
In a similar way, I have sometimes wondered, what if there were previous “Marys” that did say no.
Of course, this could possibly fall into heresy, and don’t consign to it, as there is no proof of anything of the sort. But like you said, its an interesting practice to ponder how amazing her Yes was.
On a side note, I don’t know how she could say No, as it is said she fully comprehended the awesomeness of God from the moment of her Immaculate Conception, as there was no sin to seperate them.
Of course, this could possibly fall into heresy, and don’t consign to it, as there is no proof of anything of the sort. But like you said, its an interesting practice to ponder how amazing her Yes was.
On a side note, I don’t know how she could say No, as it is said she fully comprehended the awesomeness of God from the moment of her Immaculate Conception, as there was no sin to seperate them.
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GerardP
Guest
Added to that, was a fortress of Saints and Angels around her for her entire life. I personally think it’s possible that God wouldn’t even let the Devil get a glimpse of her in any way that would have made him realize just who she was and the scope of her purity.
She is what Lucifer thought himself to be worthy of. She sits with the Most High, her heart is intertwined with God’s heart. He must hate her with a passion only exceeded by his fear of her and her incalculably greater beauty and power.
Stretch your imagination as far as you can and you’ll only get a small idea of the value of the gift Christ Our Lord gave to us from the Cross. The first and second greatest treasures in existence were given that day, the Father received the Son’s perfect sacrifice and Man was given the Mother of God, His greatest creation.
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Deacon_Ed_B
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eelpis
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St Louis Marie Montfort taught that Lucifer fell from grace because of the Immaculate Conception, that’s why he hates her with a vengence and that’s why he fears her so much, to be defeated by God is just what you’d expect but to be defeated by a woman that’s really humiliating to the prideful demon.
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MrS
Guest
This same question was asked by a high schooler in one of my apologetics classes a few years back… with a follow-up question.
1] What if Mary had said no, and
2] would that have the same results as Eve “saying no”… another “original sin”
After some discussion, the group was quite content with understanding that not only did God know who He would choose, He also knew what her answer would be… and thus she was addressed, before her answer, as Full of Grace. There was no way she could both say no, and be Full of Grace.
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1] What if Mary had said no, and
2] would that have the same results as Eve “saying no”… another “original sin”
After some discussion, the group was quite content with understanding that not only did God know who He would choose, He also knew what her answer would be… and thus she was addressed, before her answer, as Full of Grace. There was no way she could both say no, and be Full of Grace.
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Brenda_V
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Wonderful.
Deacon Ed B thank you for starting this thread. we seem to all be stretching our Faith muscles with this and it is nothing but good! I for one am learning and growing in my faith by the answers given.
Brenda V.
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Deacon_Ed_B
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You hit the reason I started this thread. If we all give our insights into the effect of her fiat, and where we would be if she had said no. , we all come to a greater understanding of what she means to each of us. I am even learning from these responses, which are far better than I could have hoped for. Y’all, keep them coming.eacon Ed B thank you for starting this thread. we seem to all be stretching our Faith muscles with this and it is nothing but good! I for one am learning and growing in my faith by the answers given.
Brenda V.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Brian_C
Guest
I get into this discussion all the time with a co-worker. She’s a sweet, older lady who attends a “literal” backwoods primitive black Baptist church. She always ask me why “you Catholics are always saying ‘Hail Mary this and that?’” And “What did Mary do for you? She didn’t free you from your sins, Jesus did.”
When I reply that she was Jesus mother and as such, played a role in our salvation, she responds that any woman could have been Jesus mother.
I just tell her yes, but God picked Mary; she said yes…and for that, I am thankful…
When I reply that she was Jesus mother and as such, played a role in our salvation, she responds that any woman could have been Jesus mother.
I just tell her yes, but God picked Mary; she said yes…and for that, I am thankful…
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