What would it mean to make abortion illegal?

[Rocinante]

what does the Church actually seek in terms of making abortion illegal? What should the punishment be? who should be punished?

 

[StTommyMore]

We woild just look back to the anti-abortion laws before Roe v. Wade. This really is not an issue. Since the CHristianization of Europe, Abortion has been illegal, up until 1973. It isn’t like making abortion illegal is some new thiang that has never been done before.

 

[Rocinante]

We woild just look back to the anti-abortion laws before Roe v. Wade. This really is not an issue. Since the CHristianization of Europe, Abortion has been illegal, up until 1973. It isn’t like making abortion illegal is some new thiang that has never been done before.

i’m not old enough to know what those laws are like. i’m against abortion but i don’t know what it would mean for abortion to be made illegal. can you tell me?

 

[StTommyMore]

i’m not old enough to know what those laws are like. i’m against abortion but i don’t know what it would mean for abortion to be made illegal. can you tell me?

I haven’t done the research myself, and when Roe v. Wade was handed down, I was nearly 2 years old.

 

[Rocinante]

I haven’t done the research myself, and when Roe v. Wade was handed down, I was nearly 2 years old.

if we are going to support pro-life, it seems to me we ought to know what pro-life means in terms of the law since it is law that we are talking about in the political debate between pro-life and pro-choice. i hope someone can explain.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I don’t remember how the laws were enforced before Roe vs Wade either, but I’ve heard that some doctors performed abortions anyway, legal or no. Perhaps in the way that euthanasia is illegal today-at least in most places, yet is practised behind closed doors.
Some healthcare folks are caught & charged with it, but my guess is the majority are not.

 

[JimG]

Before Roe v Wade, each State regulated abortion by means of laws passed by duly elected State legislatures. Some states were more restrictive and some were more liberal. I don’t know if any state entirely prohibited abortion at any gestational age, or if any state allowed abortion throughout all nine months of pregnancy. But most states were more restrictive than the “abortion on demand” through nine months of pregnancy instituted by Roe v Wade.

Roe and its companion ruling Doe v Bolton inserted a health of the mother exception into its ruling which opened a loophole wide enough to allow for partial birth abortion, and enabled abortions to be performed at any time provided an abortionist could obtain a second opinion (nearly always from a second abortionist.)

Most state laws imposed no penalties on women but rather penalized abortionists.

It’s not as though there is no political middle ground between “all abortions illegal” and “all abortions legal.” While pro-life activists wish to eliminate all abortion, they have also worked to put in reasonable limits to abortion when possible. But those types of restrictions were made nearly impossible in view of Roe and Doe. Thus, post-Roe, abortion has been essentially legalized from conception to birth.

And yes, it’s true that before Roe, most illegal abortions were done by physicians in clinics or hospitals. My sense is that most abortion clinics now are far more dangerous to women in terms of medical safety than even illegal abortions were pre-Roe.

 

[Rocinante]

Most state laws imposed no penalties on women but rather penalized abortionists.

is this the sort of law that that the catholic church wants? do they think that women should not be penalized? how do they think that people who perform abortions ought to be penalized?

 

[surritter]

I think another effect of making abortion illegal is not so much going after the people involved (although I’m in favor of that for the “doctors”), but it would shut down the system ingrained in our culture and government that** facilitates and regulates** abortion.

Just think – the new laws would eliminate things like corporate donations to abortion facilities. It would eliminate the teaching of the abortion procedure in medical schools (or at least reduce it). It would hopefully force the federal government to stop pushing abortion on third-world countries.

So keep in mind this broader effect: it would pinch off many channels that keep the abortion industry sustainable.

 

[JimG]

is this the sort of law that that the catholic church wants? do they think that women should not be penalized? how do they think that people who perform abortions ought to be penalized?

The Church opposes abortion in all circumstances, but I don’t think it has any official policy on such things as the penalties which might be included within an abortion statute.

Abortion or complicity in abortion can, after all, be confessed and absolved within the privacy of the confessional. No public penances are imposed.

It would be counterproductive to the pro-life effort to impose draconian criminal penalties on women who obtain abortions. The persons to be penalized, and the persons the pre-Roe laws penalized, are abortionists.

 

[ohioszo]

Abortion will only become illegal if the majority of Americans wish it to be. When that happens, and you realize that that was the predominant value in the time before Roe vs. Wade, then abortion will again not be an alternative for those who obey the laws of their country. Your question suggests that there is some group in society that will always need abortion rights.

There is a good effort to provide help for women and for children, and even for fathers; people who provide compassion and understanding for citizens in a situation in which abortion would (previously) been considered.

I believe it would be a crime to kill a citizen of the US, who is in the womb.

Conservatives speak about the low birth rates in Europe. Not of immigrants to Europe. So, overpopulation is not the issue!

There is also a need for children for adoptions. If one thinks, one might wonder about this aspect.

 

[Mark77]

is this the sort of law that that the catholic church wants? do they think that women should not be penalized? how do they think that people who perform abortions ought to be penalized?

**Rocinante,

Welcome & God Bless you in your search for the Truth!

No one is looking to punish women for an abortion, just to prevent the murder of an innocent baby & the lifelong emotional & physical scars that the woman endures!
**

**The Catholic does not enforce civil laws or inflict criminal punishment.

The Catholic Church reinforces & promotes the teachings of Jesus Christ & only wants everyone to “Repent & believe in the Gospel.” (MK 1:15), so they will know the Truth & love & serve others & avoid causing their own eternal damnation.

Even if an abortion occurs, Jesus has infinite Mercy.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC);

"Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: (CCC 2271)

Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.

The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.

“A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.(CCC 2272)**

Search the Catechism here; scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Catholictrain]

To understand what would change if abortion was made illegal, it would be good to start with “Blood Money” the movie. [bloodmoneyfilm.com/](Blood Money)
The “industry” (in the factory sense of the word) of abortion is filled with dishonest doctors, profit-only oriented directors and clinics that don’t follow basic cleanliness norms. This evil empire would be brought to it’s knees and the shady characters who now run these abortion mills will have to find other work (because most of them would not make it as a real doctor).
bloodmoneyfilm.com/

 

[Scoobyshme]

Well, for one thing, it would mean that our country would no longer institutionalize an intrinsic evil. That would go a long way to shoring up our national security. (Really.)

But, from a practical standpoint, we wouldn’t be able to prevent a single abortion, because medicine has “advanced” to the point to where the doctor could give her a pill that would cause the abortion, and you could never prove a case against him or the patient because the pill could be used for other things. So, jurisprudence would be of no help here.

The real solution is the conversion of each individual, one by one.

 

[Julian0404]

In juxtaposing GOD’s law’s (10 Commandments) against mans law, abortion has never been “legal”. It has been accepted and approved by mans courts, but we are never to violate GOD’s Commandments to satisfy a man made law.
Even when Moses released the restriction on Divorce in the OT, he never permitted abortion. When JESUS closed the restriction on Divorce in the NT, he never opened it on abortion.

Not “if”, but “when” abortion is once again prohbited in accordance to man’s courts, there should never be a hunt or pursuit of those who performed it, advocated for it, organized it, built “mega factory/clinics” for it. Instead we need to build meusems for it, just as they did for the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish race, so we will never forget the American Holocaust against the American “innocents”.

 

[BVM_1221]

“Mean”? Oh, maybe a cross between prohibition and the current drug culture. It would go underground for thosse too poor to travel to Canada, Mexico, or other countries.

Right now, there are controls an abortion drugs. Such controls do not matter to the drug gangs. What matters is if there is money to be made.

“Mean”? That would also depend on making exceptions for rape, incest, and health of Mother. That last would have to be very strictly defined, since it is still safer to have an abortion then have a live birth. Or do we tell them “too bad, live or die.”?

“Mean?” Oh, the little matter of what punishment should be assigned. In the 20th century, one might have got away with punishing only the Physician. In the 21st century, one may have to make the punishment for the woman and the Physician identical. 14th Amendment and all that.

But if you are a lawyer, it’s all good news. The courts will be overflowing with lawsuits and criminal actions of one kind or another:dancing:

 

[Rocinante]

“Mean”? Oh, maybe a cross between prohibition and the current drug culture. It would go underground for thosse too poor to travel to Canada, Mexico, or other countries.

Right now, there are controls an abortion drugs. Such controls do not matter to the drug gangs. What matters is if there is money to be made.

“Mean”? That would also depend on making exceptions for rape, incest, and health of Mother. That last would have to be very strictly defined, since it is still safer to have an abortion then have a live birth. Or do we tell them “too bad, live or die.”?

“Mean?” Oh, the little matter of what punishment should be assigned. In the 20th century, one might have got away with punishing only the Physician. In the 21st century, one may have to make the punishment for the woman and the Physician identical. 14th Amendment and all that.

But if you are a lawyer, it’s all good news. The courts will be overflowing with lawsuits and criminal actions of one kind or another:dancing:

if i understand you correctly, it sounds like you are less than enthusiastic about making abortion illegal. is that correct?

 

[Marty_Bene_Son]

The Catholic Church can’t claim to define the specific civic laws which will reflect its moral teachings, particularly in a specific country.
The Church teaches abortion is wrong, and it’s up to the voters and the lawmakers to envision and create laws that make sure this teaching is upheld.
This law would theoretically be enforced not by punishment towards a woman who receives an abortion but towards an institution or physician who would disobey this potential law.

 

[BVM_1221]

if i understand you correctly, it sounds like you are less than enthusiastic about making abortion illegal. is that correct?

You are correct. As a good Catrholic, I regard abortion as a sin. As a good Catholic, I do not vote for Democratic Party candidates. Etc. etc etc…

But in the real world, to impose abortion restrictions on women without a broad consent, simply will not work. :dts:

Note the word “impose” in the previous sentence.:ehh:

In any case, as long as the Supreme Court does not overturn various decisions, and there looks to be little chance that will happen, all that can be done is that certain states will try to impose petty, mean-spirited restrictions that the courts will have no problem overturning.:banghead:

So what can be done? In my own abject, humble opinion, nothing less then a broad education initiative by the Catholic Church and other anti-abortion groups. Education might work were a brute force approach fails.

And note my signature

 

[BVM_1221]

The Catholic Church can’t claim to define the specific civic laws which will reflect its moral teachings, particularly in a specific country.
The Church teaches abortion is wrong, and it’s up to the voters and the lawmakers to envision and create laws that make sure this teaching is upheld.
This law would theoretically be enforced not by punishment towards a woman who receives an abortion but towards an institution or physician who would disobey this potential law.

That was the case before abortion became legel in the 20th Century. In the 21st Century, it is going to be a lot harder to pass a law that imposes disparate penalties on Physician and the woman involved. If abortion is defined as a crime, the woman is a full accomplace to the crime.