What would it take for Jesus to NOT be present at the Mass?

[twf]

That’s even too high a standard which the Church does not require. A priest need only intend to do what the Church does.

This is why even the unbelieving or sinful priest most likely does not even lack sufficient intention because at least virtually, he at least intends to celebrate Mass, and do whatever the Church does. Murdering a nun hardly constitutes withdrawal of intention.

The poster suggested that the priest who murdered the nun was involved in satantic activity, in which case it is possible that he deliberately sought to not offer the sacrifice of the mass and was indeed deliberately just “going through the motions”.

 

[Julia_Mae]

The poster suggested that the priest who murdered the nun was involved in satantic activity, in which case it is possible that he deliberately sought to not offer the sacrifice of the mass and was indeed deliberately just “going through the motions”.

Then he wouldn’t have to murder anyone at all, would he? The fact that I keep coming back to is: none of us know the answer.

 

[seekerz]

Call it a stupid question (I do ask those sometimes, ), but isn’t Jesus always present at the Mass even if He (arguably) may not be present in a sacramental sense? If we assume that the congregation has gathered “in His Name” can we not be confident of His being there regardless of whether or not He is present in the Bread we receive?

 

[Brendan]

Three things are required for the Mass to be valid.

1. A priest with valid Holy Orders ( this does,actually, include the SSPX, the ‘Old Catholic Church’ the Eastern Orthodox and other with a valid Apostolic Succession and Orders)
2. Valid Matter - the bread must be wheat bread and the wine from grapes. Additives have the potentiality to render the matter in valid
3. A valid Eucharistic prayer
4. The intention on the part of the priest to do as the Church does in this regard.

If any of those are missing, the gifts of bread and wine remain just that, bread and wine. Our Lord would not be Substantially present on the altar.

 

[porthos11]

Call it a stupid question (I do ask those sometimes, ), but isn’t Jesus always present at the Mass even if He (arguably) may not be present in a sacramental sense? If we assume that the congregation has gathered “in His Name” can we not be confident of His being there regardless of whether or not He is present in the Bread we receive?

What defines the Mass is the Sacrifice and the Real Presence under the species of bread and wine. Without this, there is no Mass and Christ’s presence is no more than that of a prayer meeting.

 

[silicasandra]

Brendan:

Three things are required for the Mass to be valid…

1. A valid Eucharistic prayer …

The other requirements I get, but this one is the one I get hung up on. What is required for a valid Eucharistic prayer?

(For example, in confession, the priest has to say “I absolve you” at an absolute minimum. If a priest forgets a part or ad libs a Eucharistic prayer, is there still a Mass?)

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[Godfollower]

Call it a stupid question (I do ask those sometimes, ), but isn’t Jesus always present at the Mass even if He (arguably) may not be present in a sacramental sense? If we assume that the congregation has gathered “in His Name” can we not be confident of His being there regardless of whether or not He is present in the Bread we receive?

Exactly! Thank you!

For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 18:20.

Maybe the Sacrament of Holy Communion occurs validly; maybe not. But Jesus is present either way.

 

[Leon_Bloy]

Actually, even if the priest does not believe, the Church supplies the defect (because how would you know what the priest believes?) as long as he says or means to say the right words.

That is correct. The Eucharist is still valid even if the priest does not believe. The Church has taught definitively on that already.

 

[Leon_Bloy]

The Council of Trent ruled on this, actually. They said it’s pretty hard to invalidate a mass.

Liturgical abuses are never acceptable, but these things can invalidate a mass:

-not having proper matter (i.e. bread and wine)
-not having an ordained priest or bishop saying the mass
-not using the essential form (words of consecration: as in “this is my body,” “this is my blood”)
-the priest actively forming the intention NOT to be celebrating the mass (as in if a real priest were saying the words of the mass over bread and wine as an actor in a play while performing the part of a priest saying mass - which of course would be a very bad idea for him to agree to do in the first place!)

 

[Brendan]

The other requirements I get, but this one is the one I get hung up on. What is required for a valid Eucharistic prayer?

(For example, in confession, the priest has to say “I absolve you” at an absolute minimum. If a priest forgets a part or ad libs a Eucharistic prayer, is there still a Mass?)

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

There are multiple valid variants, not only in the Roman Rite, but there are Eastern Catholic\Orthodox Eucharistic Prayers as well. Technically a priest could make up his own, but that starts getting into shaky ground… The Church has stated that a valid Eucharist prayer will include the Institutional Narrative, “This is My Body”, “This is My Blood”, but the Church has only definitively stated that the Eucharist is confected after a valid Eucharistic Prayer.

The case of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari in the Assyrian Church of the East, for example, shows that the Institutional Narrative is not recited, but contained implicitly ( as noted in other aspects of that Eucharistic Prayer - “e body of Christ and his precious blood are on the holy altar.”

But that determination required a close examination by the Holy See before it was deemed to be a valid Eucharistic Prayer. Likewise any decided variation from an accepted Eucharistic Prayer would leave an element of doubt in the validity of the Mass.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I’ve read a lot of threads on hear about various liturgical abuses–everything from people not liking the choice of music to more serious offenses like heretical homilies and the like. Often, the advice given is to stay through Mass and take Communion because, no matter how bad it is, Jesus is still present. My question is, How bad does it have to be for it to not be a valid Mass?

A black mass.

 

[silicasandra]

Brendan:

There are multiple valid variants, not only in the Roman Rite, but there are Eastern Catholic\Orthodox Eucharistic Prayers as well. Technically a priest could make up his own, but that starts getting into shaky ground… The Church has stated that a valid Eucharist prayer will include the Institutional Narrative, “This is My Body”, “This is My Blood”, but the Church has only definitively stated that the Eucharist is confected after a valid Eucharistic Prayer.

The case of the Anaphora of Addai and Mari in the Assyrian Church of the East, for example, shows that the Institutional Narrative is not recited, but contained implicitly ( as noted in other aspects of that Eucharistic Prayer - “e body of Christ and his precious blood are on the holy altar.”

But that determination required a close examination by the Holy See before it was deemed to be a valid Eucharistic Prayer. Likewise any decided variation from an accepted Eucharistic Prayer would leave an element of doubt in the validity of the Mass.

Thank you! This is very helpful.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[Mike30]

I lived in South Texas for a while and attended what could charitably be described as an extremely liberal, progressive minded, liberation theology advocate Church. The Parish did not have a resident Priest but was served by an order of Sisters, who shall remain nameless, and what could best be described as a circuit riding Priest, also of an order that shall remain nameless.

Mass when celebrated by the Priest, they were also celebrated by the Sisters, and yes, they were Masses not Communion Services, I do know the difference, tended to be largely ad libbed affairs with entire prayers either being omitted or changed wholescale. In fact it was not at all uncommon for the consecration to take place using corn tortillas as communion due to the stated fact they they were food for the people. The Sisters outdid themselves in performing the consecrations often inviting all of the women present, only women of course, to concelebrate with them.

Greatimes!!

So in cases such as these I would tend to believe that Jesus was not present in the Eucharist, although I could be wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

So in cases such as these I would tend to believe that Jesus was not present in the Eucharist, although I could be wrong.

I find it hard to believe that such a parish was approved by the local Bishop, actually …

 

[TimothyH]

A black mass.

A Black Mass is a Mass in reverse.

A Black Mass is where an attempt is made to unconsecrate the Eucharist, to remove the real presence of Jesus and return the Eucharist to the substance of bread (and wine if present). Some believe that they are replacing the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist with the presence of the enemy, and then they consume.

Poeple who do such things - and there are people who do - believe in the Holy Catholic Church and in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist but have contempt for both.

-Tim-

 

[Saints_Alive]

I’ve read a lot of threads on hear about various liturgical abuses–everything from people not liking the choice of music to more serious offenses like heretical homilies and the like. Often, the advice given is to stay through Mass and take Communion because, no matter how bad it is, Jesus is still present. My question is, How bad does it have to be for it to not be a valid Mass?

Gordon, don’t worry about such things. You obviously have Christ in your heart, so any Mass you attend will have Him present.

And there are the prayers of the Mass that invoke Christ.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Gordon, don’t worry about such things. You obviously have Christ in your heart, so any Mass you attend will have Him present.

And there are the prayers of the Mass that invoke Christ.

I wasn’t worried about it, just curious. I felt the discussion that came out in the thread was really informative. Thanks, everyone!