What Would It Take To Convince Them?

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Milliardo

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We’ve seen the anti-Catholic arguments. We’ve given our side, and they keep coming back. We see the same argument from them over and over inspite of the explanations and Scripture and history that we give them. What do you think would it take to really convince them, something that would be definitive and irrefutable as to leave no doubt in sight?
 
What do you think would it take to really convince them, something that would be definitive and irrefutable as to leave no doubt in sight?
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The Holy Spirit!

We can convince them of nothing. We can present but it is through the conviction of the Holy Spirit that their minds and hearts will be changed.

Although we keep getting the same arguments lately, it is new people. Some will always come back and never hear the truth. Their heart is hardened. Others, seeds will be planted. There are several on this board right now who although are not in RCIA, they are being convicted of this path.

Just keep on presenting the truth. For me coming from a bible alone church, it was the Eucharist interestingly enough. I could not understand how they could not see what the Bible plainly says about the Real Presence.

God Bless,
Maria

God Bless,
Maria
 
We see the same arguments, but not from the same people. Our vocation is to be patient and persistent.
 
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Milliardo:
We’ve seen the anti-Catholic arguments. We’ve given our side, and they keep coming back. We see the same argument from them over and over inspite of the explanations and Scripture and history that we give them. What do you think would it take to really convince them, something that would be definitive and irrefutable as to leave no doubt in sight?
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They have to want to believe. I really think they have to be open to listening and digesting what they learn of the church. Not everyone is. I think that we can’t convince people who aren’t at least a little willing to be open to the truth.
 
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mommy:
They have to want to believe. I really think they have to be open to listening and digesting what they learn of the church. Not everyone is. I think that we can’t convince people who aren’t at least a little willing to be open to the truth.
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Exactly. We cannot despair because, even if we don’t reach the person with whom we are exchanging posts, we might do so with someone who is simply reading them. Also, don’t get too hung up on the force of our arguments. As others have posted, the real work in this is up to the Holy Spirit. We may never see the impact He will work through what we post. Consider ourselves as workers in the vinyard. As we move on to other areas, the Holy Spirit will continue to nurture the seeds we plant. Ultimately, however, someone else may reap the harvest. We can’t complain because the harvest isn’t ours to begin with. 😃
 
It’ll take Jesus descending from Heaven, landing on the balcony of the Vatican, and giving the pope a big hug. Actually, at that point, they’d probably just accuse Jesus of being the anti-Christ.
 
This reminds me of Saint Francis’s famous quote:

“Preach the gospel everywhere, and if necessary, use words.”

Kyle
 
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Milliardo:
We’ve seen the anti-Catholic arguments. We’ve given our side, and they keep coming back. We see the same argument from them over and over inspite of the explanations and Scripture and history that we give them. What do you think would it take to really convince them, something that would be definitive and irrefutable as to leave no doubt in sight?
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I have seen the excellent answers the Catholics on this Forum have given to the ones who persist in their own interpretations, their so-called study of history, dancing around the subject, and switching to other topics when they have no answer. And the list of excuses go on and on as they try to refute that the CC is Christ’s true church.

In order for the veil to fall off their minds and to see clearly, we as Catholics have to intensify our prayer life for just that purpose. But prayer alone is not enough, it needs to be accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousess. (Tobit 12:8) I guess, not enough of this is being done. When I say this, there are 3 fingers pointing back at me.

There are so many reflections that go through my mind as how I can possibly move Jesus’ Heart when I pray for conversions, especially for members in my own family. But, I ususally don’t stop there - I pray for conversions for people all over the world.

I always fall back on the following prayer which most of you probably already know, the one our Lord dictated to Gertrude the Great for the release of 1000 souls from Purgatory each time it is said, but also for the purpose of conversions:

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home, and within my family. Amen." JESUS, JESUS, JESUS.

Just a few of my thoughts.
 
I agree with St Felicity that John 6 is key here. Jesus explains why it is that some of those present would not accept his message. He said, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me shall come to me.” Jesus is making an argument here that goes like this:
  1. If the Father gives you to me, then you will come to me.
  2. Some of you are not coming to me.
  3. Therefore, some of you were not given to me by the Father.
After several people finally just walked away, he explained their unbelief again. He said, “But there are some of you who do not believe. For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.” So he’s clearly saying that the reason some of them wouldn’t believe is because it had not been granted them from the Father.

This is put more explicitly in John 10 where Jesus says, “But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.” So you have to be one of his sheep before you can believe. Jesus also tells us how we become one of his sheep. He says, “My father, who has given them [the sheep] to me is greater than all.” The argument goes like this:
  1. Before you can believe, you have to be Jesus’ sheep.
  2. Before you can be Jesus’ sheep, you have to be given to him by the Father.
  3. Therefore, Before you can believe, you have to be given to Jesus by the Father.
That’s consistent with John 6:37, which says, “All that the Father gives me will come to me.”

So I think Maria is right when she said we can convince them of nothing; it’s the Holy Spirit who must change them. TheMutant likewise said the real work is up to the Holy Spirit who works through our arguments.

I think mommy is right when she says they have to want to believe. If they lack the desire, then they are unable to believe. Only God can give them that desire. They can’t choose to have the desire unless they have the desire to make that choice to begin with.

It all sounds very Calvinistic to me, though.

Sam
 
It’ll take Jesus descending from Heaven, landing on the balcony of the Vatican, and giving the pope a big hug. Actually, at that point, they’d probably just accuse Jesus of being the anti-Christ
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:rotfl:
 
Some would be more easily convinced if there were a Catholic Church within a 30 mile drive. 🙂 There are a lot of things that I admire about the Catholic Church, but outreach and evangelism isn’t their forte.

O+
 
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
Eph 6:23 Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is not up to you to “convince” others that you are right and they are wrong. We know how God offers his gift:

Acts 6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

So, the answer to your question is: “the word of Christ”.
 
It seems to me that many people convert to one church because of someone in their life who they know who reaches out to them or seems to have an exemplary life. This kind of personal relationship is hard to obtain over an internet forum.

Intellectual arguments don’t work until someone is open and seeking. While we all hear about extremely scholarly people who “read themselves into the Church”, for most people it takes having someone close to them suddenly converting for them to investigate. I have known several people whose conversion started by reading Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. But oftentimes, it takes someone close to them in their life (a boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband) who is Catholic or converting to actually get the book into their hands. Then God takes over.

Many of the non-Catholics coming onto these forums aren’t particularly curious about getting an honest Catholic response, but in provoking a fight and trying to prove they are right. Needless to say, this seldom produces converts.

We should always strive to treat them with love and respect, even if they insist on spitting in our face. Honey is much more enticing than vinegar. It’s only when they see that their abuse is met with love that they will stop and say to themselves, “something is different here.” Then, an honest dialogue can begin. I admit I have not always been very good in this regard.

That’s my :twocents:
 
I agree with INRI…but some people need to get knocked to their butts with the Truth before they will ever consider accepting a helping hand offered in charity.

I’ve been know to attempt both of these tactics–and I’m sure I have failed miserably at both–ultimately, the Holy Spirit is the one who works in both parties!
 
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INRI:
I have known several people whose conversion started by reading Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. But oftentimes, it takes someone close to them in their life (a boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband) who is Catholic or converting to actually get the book into their hands. Then God takes over.

Many of the non-Catholics coming onto these forums aren’t particularly curious about getting an honest Catholic response, but in provoking a fight and trying to prove they are right. Needless to say, this seldom produces converts.

That’s my :twocents:
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Given that I strongly agree with the last sentence of what I quoted, I must say that I find Keating’s book to be about as abrasive and argumentative as you can get. He is in full blown attack mode.

Now, if you either are a Catholic, or inclined to convert, your response is “Right on!!!” and “You tell 'em!!!” Otherwise, it is just an angry person screaming at Jimmy Swagart quotes.
 
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RonWI:
Given that I strongly agree with the last sentence of what I quoted, I must say that I find Keating’s book to be about as abrasive and argumentative as you can get. He is in full blown attack mode.

Now, if you either are a Catholic, or inclined to convert, your response is “Right on!!!” and “You tell 'em!!!” Otherwise, it is just an angry person screaming at Jimmy Swagart quotes.
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I think you would find Patrick Madrid and Jimmy Akin to be much more gentle. I have heard others say the same thing about Karl, but I gotta love the guy. He’s the reason we’ve got this forum!

I notice from your profile that you are Lutheran and your username happens to be RonWI. Any chance you are WELS? I used to live in Wisconsin for a brief period of my life.
 
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Theodora:
I have seen the excellent answers the Catholics on this Forum have given to the ones who persist in their own interpretations, their so-called study of history, dancing around the subject, and switching to other topics when they have no answer. And the list of excuses go on and on as they try to refute that the CC is Christ’s true church.

In order for the veil to fall off their minds and to see clearly, we as Catholics have to intensify our prayer life for just that purpose. But prayer alone is not enough, it needs to be accompanied by fasting, almsgiving, and righteousess. (Tobit 12:8) I guess, not enough of this is being done. When I say this, there are 3 fingers pointing back at me.

There are so many reflections that go through my mind as how I can possibly move Jesus’ Heart when I pray for conversions, especially for members in my own family. But, I ususally don’t stop there - I pray for conversions for people all over the world.

I always fall back on the following prayer which most of you probably already know, the one our Lord dictated to Gertrude the Great for the release of 1000 souls from Purgatory each time it is said, but also for the purpose of conversions:

"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home, and within my family. Amen." JESUS, JESUS, JESUS.

Just a few of my thoughts.
Click to expand...
What do you mean “our Lord dictated to Gertrude the Great…”?
 
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