What would it take to convince you that God doesn’t exist?

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Della said:
You didn’t answer the question, though. Why would it matter? Does God’s perfection mean that he HAD to create anything to be “perfect”, and by what standard are you applying the term “perfect?”

No, God didn’t have to do anything at all–not even create thee universe and certainly not us. And being God, he could create anything anyway he wanted/wants.

Sorry, but your assertion doesn’t answer the question.
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God should the best in all his attributes.
 
Shredderbeam said:
The universe, sure, but why rational beings?

Life can have meaning without God, it just depends on what your definition of “meaning” is. For example, an artist’s meaning/purpose in life could be to complete their magnum opus.

There is a large body of evidence detailing what chemicals are involved in love in the brain.
That said, love being based solely upon chemical reactions wouldn’t make it just an illusion.

The natural world is extremely ugly and chaotic. We can find beauty in places, sure, but try explaining that to a gazelle being eaten alive by a lion.

Regarding your prayers, I vaguely remembering reading that the purpose of prayer wasn’t to change God’s mind on something, but rather to bring yourself closer to understanding God’s will. I could easily be completely wrong on that, however.

How so?
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Shredderbeam said:
The universe, sure, but why rational beings?
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Because the rational mind acts for purposeful and meaningful ends, which in itself does not make rational sense if we reduce the rational mind to blind natural processes alone…

It makes better sense to think that the prime cause is in some sense a rational mind and is the first cause of other rational minds.
 
IWantGod said:
Because the rational mind acts for purposeful and meaningful ends, which does not make rational sense if we reduce the rational mind to blind natural processes alone…

It makes better sense to think that the prime cause is in some sense a rational mind and is the first cause of other rational minds.
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Irrefutable! Where else could hindsight, insight and foresight originate?
 
tonyrey said:
Irrefutable! Where else could hindsight, insight and foresight originate?
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A quick thought experiment.

God speaks to you. In fact, He appears to you. He convinces you, by whatever means you would need, that He exists. Then He reveals Himself to be nothing more than a member of an advanced race of beings that are carrying out a minor experiment on us.

Ah, but sez you, who created the aliens.

So the question is not ‘does God exist’ but rather ‘does the God in which I believe exist’. In which case, in the above scenario, would be ‘No’.
 
frobert said:
The question is an offshoot from another thread “Is it true that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?” which is a question for the atheist that got me thinking about a similar question for theists: “What would it take to convince you that God doesn’t exist?”
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I think, based on what I know and believe now, short of an intellectually-debilitating cognitive malfunction, there isn’t anything that could convince me God doesn’t exist. A giant demideity half the size of the sun could emerge and tell us God doesn’t exist and it wouldn’t be enough for me schuck off the essential view that it is good to be, and that goodness of being has a source, and that source is Intelligence Himself.
 
Bradski said:
A quick thought experiment.

God speaks to you. In fact, He appears to you. He convinces you, by whatever means you would need, that He exists. Then He reveals Himself to be nothing more than a member of an advanced race of beings that are carrying out a minor experiment on us.

Ah, but sez you, who created the aliens.

So the question is not ‘does God exist’ but rather ‘does the God in which I believe exist’. In which case, in the above scenario, would be ‘No’.
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But does the God of the Jews and Christians exist? So far, He hasn’t copped to being an extraterrestrial research scientist… And no word from the gods of Egypt or Sumeria as yet.
 
Bradski said:
But if He did…?
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I guess I’d have to cross that bridge when I got to it. I’m dubious, however. This isn’t really much of a thought experiment, though. It’s more of just a hypothetical situation. Thought experiments are designed to try and discover some kind of truth, and usually have two or more ways out. An extraterrestrial entity might dismantle a specific religion through its own revelation, but it doesn’t answer the question about God. Nevertheless, it begs the question: is the extraterrestrial telling the truth? It would be nearly impossible to furnish all of the necessary proof precisely because without our own physical evidence to cross compare (and sadly, we lack a lot of it), we’d have to be taking much of his testimony at his word.
 
I don’t know how to answer that question… because if God didn’t exist, the world would be meaningless, and we probably wouldn’t even have the idea of “meaning” at all. We wouldn’t even know what we’re missing, so to speak.

So… 🤷

But we can know that God is real, even if through faith, it’s a certainty of faith. It’s more than an educated guess when we know God. I can say through His grace I know He is real, with the certainty of faith. It is His grace though. If I lost it, I’d lose my faith. I pray that wouldn’t ever happen!
 
MJDorry said:
I guess I’d have to cross that bridge when I got to it. I’m dubious, however. This isn’t really much of a thought experiment, though. It’s more of just a hypothetical situation. Thought experiments are designed to try and discover some kind of truth, and usually have two or more ways out. An extraterrestrial entity might dismantle a specific religion through its own revelation, but it doesn’t answer the question about God. Nevertheless, it begs the question: is the extraterrestrial telling the truth? It would be nearly impossible to furnish all of the necessary proof precisely because without our own physical evidence to cross compare (and sadly, we lack a lot of it), we’d have to be taking much of his testimony at his word.
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The hypothetical assumes that you do take him at his word. He convinces you that he is god (by whatever means is convincing to you) and then tells you thay he’s not. He’s just playing a god-like figure as part of an experiment on us. Let’s face it, they wouldn’t have to be that much more advanced than us to do it. Just a few hundred years would do it. Imagine if it was a few million…
 
Bradski said:
The hypothetical assumes that you do take him at his word. He convinces you that he is god (by whatever means is convincing to you) and then tells you thay he’s not. He’s just playing a god-like figure as part of an experiment on us. Let’s face it, they wouldn’t have to be that much more advanced than us to do it. Just a few hundred years would do it. Imagine if it was a few million…
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I’m assuming you mean he convinces me that he is the entity that people call God in scripture and in reality he is not God but instead he is an alien.

Because if you mean to say that he really is God, metaphysically speaking, and he is an alien, then this is a contradiction in terms. Christian believe God, to put it in simple terms, is the ground of all being. He is the prime cause. He cannot be that and an alien.
 
IWantGod said:
I’m assuming you mean he convinces me that he is the entity that people call God in scripture and in reality he is not God but instead he is an alien.

Because if you mean to say that he really is God, metaphysically speaking, and he is an alien, then this is a contradiction in terms. Christian believe God, to put it in simple terms, is the ground of all being. He is the prime cause. He cannot be that and an alien.
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He got one of the interns to make the universe. They make a few every day as part of their first year apprenticeship.
 
tonyrey said:
Why should rational beings be the exception? Everything in the universe requires an adequate explanation.
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Not really. I’ll happily agree that an uncaused cause can’t exist, but all that that requires is that something kick off the universe, and be the reason for its existence. It says nothing about stars, planets, chemistry, intelligence, photosynthesis, etc.
IWantGod said:
Because the rational mind acts for purposeful and meaningful ends, which in itself does not make rational sense if we reduce the rational mind to blind natural processes alone…
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Of course that makes sense. A rational mind won’t last very long if it tries to swim in an active volcano.
 
Shredderbeam said:
Why should rational beings be the exception? Everything in the universe requires an adequate explanation.
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That “something” gives the game away! That is why atheism is an unverified hypothesis.
A rational mind won’t last very long if it tries to swim in an active volcano.
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Materialism is another unverified hypothesis. We** infer **that things other minds exist from our perceptions: our primary datum and sole certainty is our mental activity. We are all in the “egocentric predicament” whether we like it or not and our greatness consists in our power of reason. As Pascal pointed out, we know the universe exists while the universe knows nothing!
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