What would Jesus say or do...

[hamba2han]

I find your statment rather confusing. Are you saying that what Jesus would say to those who come to him on the Day of Judgment would not apply to those Muslims who do not love him by keeping his commandments? Trust me, the Day of Judgment will apply to everyone, regardless of their beliefs. Those who have heard his Word and have not accepted it and lived their lives accordingly will be subject to judgement.

What I meant to say is that since Muslims love Jesus Christ (pbuh) and they do indeed keep the Commandments (with the exception of the Sabbath), then this of course implies that the Bible passage Matthew 7:21-23, as quoted in my previous post, cannot possibly be referring to Muslims.

 

[SteveVH]

What I meant to say is that since Muslims love Jesus Christ (pbuh) and they do indeed keep the Commandments (with the exception of the Sabbath), then this of course implies that the Bible passage Matthew 7:21-23, as quoted in my previous post, cannot possibly be referring to Muslims.

If you love Jesus and keep the commandments then why are you not Christian? You have obviously decided, for one reason or another, that his claim to be the Son of God and his unambiguous statement that “No one comes to the Father except through me” are false. In fact you reject the very notion of God as “Father”. You also imply that all Muslims “do indeed keep the Commandments”. Well I will tell you that it is a certainty that many do not. The same is true with Christians. So the fact that one is either Christian or Muslim in itself will not protect you from the judgement, but rather how you, as an individual, believe and live your life. So what is it that you love about Jesus and why do you reject his own claim to be the Son of God?

 

[Godfollower]

And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:29.

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures, the things that were concerning him.

Luke 24:27.

Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

Luke 24:45.

Of course, I really have no idea what He would say; His wisdom so far surpasses ours that it’s impossible to predict His reaction. But it’s interesting to see how He reacted to the Pharisees and Sadducees regarding Scripture, and I suspect that He would explain to the inquirer where he (the inquirer) had gone wrong.

 

[hamba2han]

If you love Jesus and keep the commandments then why are you not Christian? You have obviously decided, for one reason or another, that his claim to be the Son of God and his unambiguous statement that “No one comes to the Father except through me” are false. In fact you reject the very notion of God as “Father”. You also imply that all Muslims “do indeed keep the Commandments”. Well I will tell you that it is a certainty that many do not. The same is true with Christians. So the fact that one is either Christian or Muslim in itself will not protect you from the judgement, but rather how you, as an individual, believe and live your life. So what is it that you love about Jesus and why do you reject his own claim to be the Son of God?

We need to examine the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the New Testament.

Matthew 19:16-21
**“And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.”
**

Jesus in this passage of the NT completely neglects any mention of an original sin or an atonement. He does not tell this man that “a man is not justified by the works of the law … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified…” Rather, he tells him that the keeping of the commandments and the selling of one’s belongings is the path to perfection. No mention of an original sin. No mention of an atonement. No mention of a crucifixion. No mention of faith without work. All of these beliefs were the teachings of Paul and not Jesus (pbuh).

Muslims do not follow Paul and so we keep the Commandments… and this of course means that Muslims love Jesus Christ (pbuh) the way Jesus himself wants to be loved by his followers*.

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." … John 14:15

*note – ‘followers’ need to actually follow the instructions of the one whom they profess to be their leader.

 

[SteveVH]

We need to examine the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the New Testament.

Matthew 19:16-21
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me."

Jesus in this passage of the NT completely neglects any mention of an original sin or an atonement. He does not tell this man that “a man is not justified by the works of the law … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified…” Rather, he tells him that the keeping of the commandments and the selling of one’s belongings is the path to perfection. No mention of an original sin. No mention of an atonement. No mention of a crucifixion. No mention of faith without work. All of these beliefs were the teachings of Paul and not Jesus (pbuh).

Muslims do not follow Paul and so we keep the Commandments… and this of course means that Muslims love Jesus Christ (pbuh) the way Jesus himself wants to be loved by his followers*.

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." … John 14:15

*note – ‘followers’ need to actually follow the instructions of the one whom they profess to be their leader.

He said FOLLOW ME, not follow my instructions. Do you follow Jesus or Mohammed? He also said many other things. He claimed to be the Son of God. Do you believe that he is the Son of God, that he died for your sins and that he was resurrected?

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Jesus in this passage of the NT completely neglects any mention of an original sin or an atonement. He does not tell this man that “a man is not justified by the works of the law … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified…” Rather, he tells him that the keeping of the commandments and the selling of one’s belongings is the path to perfection. No mention of an original sin. No mention of an atonement. No mention of a crucifixion. No mention of faith without work. All of these beliefs were the teachings of Paul and not Jesus (pbuh)

No mention of an atonement or crucifixion, hamba?

Matt 16:21: From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matt 26:28: for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

No mention of faith apart from works?

Luke 18:9-14: He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Of course, you miss Jesus’ entire point to the rich young ruler: you must be perfect in the commandments to inherit eternal life…and you are not. The disciples ask, how then can anyone be saved?

 

[hamba2han]

He said FOLLOW ME, not follow my instructions. Do you follow Jesus or Mohammed? He also said many other things. He claimed to be the Son of God. Do you believe that he is the Son of God, that he died for your sins and that he was resurrected?

Muslims believe that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is one of the mightiest Prophets in Islam.

It is better that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself explain how Muslims view earlier Prophets like Jesus, Moses and Abraham (peace be upon them all).

Abu Huraira reports that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

"My position, in relation to the prophets who came before me, can be explained in the following example: ‘A man erected a building and adorned his edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche in the corner, where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche! I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in line of the prophets.’" (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.)

Therefore, the Message that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought is really a continuation of the revelations brought by earlier Prophets and so this means that Muslims are actually following ALL of the Lord’s Prophets (peace be upon them all).

As for Prophet Jesus (pbuh), he is NOT the only “son of God” mentioned in the Bible:

Jacob is God’s son and firstborn:
"Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.

Solomon is God’s son:
"He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

Ephraim is God’s firstborn:
"for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 → And so, who is God’s firstborn… Israel or Ephraim?

Adam is the son of God:
"Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.

Common people (you and me) are the sons of God:
"Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” Romans 8:14. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:” John 1:12. “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” Philippians 2:15. “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: … now are we the sons of God” 1 John 3:1-2. “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” Job 38:7. “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 2:1. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,” Job 1:6. “when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,” Genesis 6:4. “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” Genesis 6:2

And was Jesus the only begotten Son of God? (with a capital ‘S’ in the word ‘Son’ even!) … Read Psalms 2:7
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

 

[hamba2han]

No mention of an atonement or crucifixion, hamba?

Matt 16:21: From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matt 26:28: for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

No mention of faith apart from works?

Luke 18:9-14: He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Of course, you miss Jesus’ entire point to the rich young ruler: you must be perfect in the commandments to inherit eternal life…and you are not. The disciples ask, how then can anyone be saved?

There are actually many instances where the purported words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the New Testament do indeed agree with what is found in the Qur’an and the Sunnah… but there are some exceptions to this rule, as can be expected.

Generally speaking however, the only places where the Bible disagrees with the Qur’an and the Sunnah are in those instances when the Bible would actually contradict itself

For example, the Bible says that man is guilty for his own sins and for his own sins alone. He is not guilty, and cannot be guilty, for the sin of Adam (pbuh) or any other man:

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." … (Ezekiel 18:20)

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." … (Deuteronomy 24:16)

The above 2 verses of the OT do indeed agree with the following verse of the Qur’an:

“Say: ‘Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the need of its acts on none but itself. No bearer of burdens call bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards God: He will tell you the truth of the things wherein you disputed.” … (Qur’an 6:164)

 

[SteveVH]

Muslims believe that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is one of the mightiest Prophets in Islam.

It is better that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself explain how Muslims view earlier Prophets like Jesus, Moses and Abraham (peace be upon them all).

Abu Huraira reports that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

"My position, in relation to the prophets who came before me, can be explained in the following example: ‘A man erected a building and adorned his edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche in the corner, where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche! I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in line of the prophets.’" (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.)

Sorry, but Jesus claimed to be God himself and for this he was crucified. Remember, he forgave sins. The Jews said no one can forgive sins but God. His answer was “Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’”? (Mat 9:5) You can read the rest for yourself. He did not just make a claim but backed it up with miracles. The man stood up and walked.

This is just one example and I refuse to get into a bible verse throwing contest with you. Jesus is God’s only begotten Son. We become sons and daughters of God through adaption. Huge difference. He is divine. We are not and never will be. We will share in his divinity but will always be creatures. Jesus was divine from eternity. For Mohammed to refer to Jesus as a prophet means that he must consider all that Jesus said and did. He obviously did not do that, or he did and rejected the truth concerning him. Jesus was not just a prophet. He is the revelation of the only true God; Emannuel; God with us, the fulfillment of all the prophets and all revelation. We needed no other prophets after Jesus.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Sorry, but Jesus claimed to be God himself and for this he was crucified. Remember, he forgave sins. The Jews said no one can forgive sins but God. His answer was “Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’”? (Mat 9:5) You can read the rest for yourself. He did not just make a claim but backed it up with miracles. The man stood up and walked.

This is just one example and I refuse to get into a bible verse throwing contest with you. Jesus is God’s only begotten Son. We become sons and daughters of God through adaption. Huge difference. He is divine. We are not and never will be. We will share in his divinity but will always be creatures. Jesus was divine from eternity. For Mohammed to refer to Jesus as a prophet means that he must consider all that Jesus said and did. He obviously did not do that, or he did and rejected the truth concerning him. Jesus was not just a prophet. He is the revelation of the only true God; Emannuel; God with us, the fulfillment of all the prophets and all revelation. We needed no other prophets after Jesus.

Amen, brother.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

There are actually many instances where the purported words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the New Testament do indeed agree with what is found in the Qur’an and the Sunnah… but there are some exceptions to this rule, as can be expected.

Yes, we know that Muslims feel that whatever Jesus (His peace be upon us) said and did that agrees with the Qu’ran is accepted by Muslims and whatever He said and did that doesn’t is rejected as “corruption.” How convenient!

For example, the Bible says that man is guilty for his own sins and for his own sins alone. He is not guilty, and cannot be guilty, for the sin of Adam (pbuh) or any other man:

Man is not guilty for the sin of Adam. Man inherits a corrupted nature from Adam. That corrupted nature, which produces actual sin, is what brings the guilt. Not what Adam did. It would be advantageous to your position if you actually studied what Christian theology teaches.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, we know that Muslims feel that whatever Jesus (His peace be upon us) said and did that agrees with the Qu’ran is accepted by Muslims and whatever He said and did that doesn’t is rejected as “corruption.” How convenient!

Man is not guilty for the sin of Adam. Man inherits a corrupted nature from Adam. That corrupted nature, which produces actual sin, is what brings the guilt. Not what Adam did. It would be advantageous to your position if you actually studied what Christian theology teaches.

 

[Nicea325]

What would Jesus say or do if a Muslim came up to him, handed him a Quran and said “this is the truth”.

What would be Jesus’s response?

Jesus: Oh my child…I have seen and heard of many so-called prophets for many centuries now.

 

[57Bill]

What would Jesus say or do if a Muslim came up to him, handed him a Quran and said “this is the truth”.

What would be Jesus’s response?

Jesus would calmly and kindly drop a parable on his lap that would either be accepted or rejected.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

What I meant to say is that since Muslims love Jesus Christ (pbuh) and they do indeed keep the Commandments (with the exception of the Sabbath), then this of course implies that the Bible passage Matthew 7:21-23, as quoted in my previous post, cannot possibly be referring to Muslims.

Hamba, I would like to say that I very much so am happy that you are on these forums. God has given you the opportunity to have eternal life with him. However to do this, you have to go through his Son, which he gave to us. When you go through him, you get salvation which is what will save you from the sin that would originally send you to hell. Without this, you are destined for eternal fire. I don’t want you to go there. I don’t want anybody to go there. This is a free gift he is offering. I hope someday you see the truth before it is too late. I’m not only here to try and offer you what you will get out of it- which is eternal life, love, peace, truth, happiness and salvation, but I’m also trying to warn you. I hope that you continue to post on these forums. Perhaps someday you will see the light and I will pray for you until that day comes. Peace be with you.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Forgive me, I didn’t know that. I kinda figured one of the points of this website was to help people find truth. Hm, alright.

Although, that doesn’t make sense. I see most people as stating their religion as ‘truth’, isn’t that also technically trying to convert others?

I wasn’t trying to be rude. I was simply trying to help Hamba and any others who might be reading this thread.