What would Jesus say to Joseph Smith

[thomasf]

i bet Jesus would ask Smith, “are you serious?”

And then tell him to knock it off.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I’m not sure what the point of these “what would Jesus say” threads is. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

 

[cestusdei]

One of the muslims started playing this game. I just took it and ran.

 

[cor]

Please consider renouncing your claim to prophet status. Also realize that you will never be a god and populate planets with your spirit children.

AFAIK, there’s no Church teaching which says that we won’t have spirit children. In the Bible it says that our destiny in heaven is not yet revealed to us:

“How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:1-2)

As for being a god, there is in Catholic tradition, especially as I understand it in the Eastern tradition the theology of divinization aka deification or theosis.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis
(I’m not sure how good the article is but it provides quotations from Catholic teachers and saints that you can read)

Here is what the **Catechism of the Catholic Church **says about deification (note the first quote below in the Catechism is from the Bible (2 Peter 1:4)):

Paragraph 460
"460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81 "

The last two quotations in the Catechism above are from:

80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.

A glorious destiny awaits those who love God. We will be crowned (this is mentioned in the Bible and Catechism also) and not just some kind of peasant in God’s kingdom. It’s a pity that today we don’t see many Catholics using the language of St Thomas Aquinas (becoming gods) and St Athanasius (becoming God), but fortunately the Catechism does.

Oops forgot the link:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#I

 

[Kristine1957]

“Would Joseph Smith please report to the principle’s office?”

“Why are the Utah Jazz called the Jazz anyway?”

Because they were originally from New Orleans which the name was “New Orleans Jazz”

 

[MelanieAnne]

That tells me you know about as much about Mormons as you do hell. I’ve read Dante’s Inferno in the original.

Alma

Have you REALLY read it in the original? Because I really did read it in the original, and the “original” is Italian and the name of the book, of which Inferno is only a part, is actually La Divina Commedia. And if you had really read it in the original you would know that.

If you have truly read it in the original, tell me what is wrong with this quote ~ “Nel mezzo di cammin di nostra vita, mi ritrovai in una selva oscura”.

I’m waiting to see if you know. If you truly read La Divina Commedia in the original and studied it, you will know the answer. If this is yet another Mormon lie, you won’t. So put up.

Cheers
Melanie

 

[b_justb]

cor:

there’s no Church teaching which says that we won’t have spirit children. In the Bible it says that our destiny in heaven is not yet revealed to us:

On just this single point:

The Gospel of St Mark 12:18-27

18 Some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him and put this question to him, 19 saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us, ‘If someone’s brother dies, leaving a wife but no child, his brother must take the wife and raise up descendants for his brother.’ 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first married a woman and died, leaving no descendants. 21 So the second married her and died, leaving no descendants, and the third likewise. 22 And the seven left no descendants. Last of all the woman also died. 23 At the resurrection (when they arise) whose wife will she be? For all seven had been married to her.”

24 Jesus said to them, “Are you not misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God? 25 When they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven. 26 As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.”

This tells me there is no such thing as Space Babies.

 

[cestusdei]

AFAIK, there’s no Church teaching which says that we won’t have spirit children. In the Bible it says that our destiny in heaven is not yet revealed to us:

“How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:1-2)

As for being a god, there is in Catholic tradition, especially as I understand it in the Eastern tradition the theology of divinization aka deification or theosis.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis
(I’m not sure how good the article is but it provides quotations from Catholic teachers and saints that you can read)

Here is what the **Catechism of the Catholic Church **says about deification (note the first quote below in the Catechism is from the Bible (2 Peter 1:4)):

Paragraph 460
"460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81 "

The last two quotations in the Catechism above are from:

80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.

A glorious destiny awaits those who love God. We will be crowned (this is mentioned in the Bible and Catechism also) and not just some kind of peasant in God’s kingdom. It’s a pity that today we don’t see many Catholics using the language of St Thomas Aquinas (becoming gods) and St Athanasius (becoming God), but fortunately the Catechism does.

Oops forgot the link:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#I

None of these sources mean what mormons mean when they say “gods.” That is part of the problem. Mormons use the same words, but mean something else entirely. There is no indication that our future is anything like what mormons believe. If anything it is different, since we are neither married nor given in marriage in heaven.

 

[cor]

None of these sources mean what mormons mean when they say “gods.” That is part of the problem. Mormons use the same words, but mean something else entirely. There is no indication that our future is anything like what mormons believe. If anything it is different, since we are neither married nor given in marriage in heaven.

I believe some Eastern Orthodox theologians talk about how some element of marriage will remain in the afterlife. I’ve only seen people on forums talk about it; I haven’t read the original source material so I don’t know much about it.

Among Catholics, Peter Kreeft, philosopher, convert, apologist, talks about “sex” in heaven

peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm

We are still male and female in heaven. I am sure we will retain the capacity to have romantic relationships – it’s part of what makes us human. Heaven is a fulfillment of our humanity as well as a glorious expansion of it.

 

[wanner47]

Nice letter, but I bet the *real *Jesus wouldn’t misuse apostrophes.

 

[cestusdei]

I believe some Eastern Orthodox theologians talk about how some element of marriage will remain in the afterlife. I’ve only seen people on forums talk about it; I haven’t read the original source material so I don’t know much about it.

Among Catholics, Peter Kreeft, philosopher, convert, apologist, talks about “sex” in heaven

peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm

We are still male and female in heaven. I am sure we will retain the capacity to have romantic relationships – it’s part of what makes us human. Heaven is a fulfillment of our humanity as well as a glorious expansion of it.

If you ask an Eastern Orthodox priest he will be happy to explain to you how mormons have it wrong. I also doubt Dr. Kreeft is enamored of mormon theology. Procreation is not necessary in heaven. The problem was that Smith was very interested in sex and couldn’t imagine paradise without it. So he based his theology on sex, or rather lust. The fact remains that mormons use our terms, but mean something different.

 

[cestusdei]

Nice letter, but I bet the *real *Jesus wouldn’t misuse apostrophes.

Blame his secretary. He was dictating.

 

[The_Truthinator]

Blame his secretary. He was dictating.

Ha, ha!

This is a strange (maybe pointless) thread.

As for celestial procreation, check out Isaiah 43:10:

“You have been chosen to know me, believe in me,
and understand that I alone am God.
There is no other God—
there never has been, and there never will be.”

The fact that in Heaven we will share in the Glory of God in no way indicates that we will be made into “gods.” We do not take his essence, either, and thus become God himself. This would be the foulest, most ridiculous heresy. Also, Mormons claim to follow the faith of the patriarchs and Moses, correct? Well, Moses relayed the message that “The LORD is your God, the LORD alone.” He was passionately, zealously monotheistic, as are Christians. If you claim to follow in the footsteps of the True Faith, how can you be opposed to Moses (and more importantly, Y’H’W’H) with polytheism?

I’ve never gotten quite where you guys are coming from.

 

[cor]

Ha, ha!

This is a strange (maybe pointless) thread.

As for celestial procreation, check out Isaiah 43:10:

“You have been chosen to know me, believe in me,
and understand that I alone am God.
There is no other God—
there never has been, and there never will be.”

The fact that in Heaven we will share in the Glory of God in no way indicates that we will be made into “gods.” We do not take his essence, either, and thus become God himself. This would be the foulest, most ridiculous heresy. Also, Mormons claim to follow the faith of the patriarchs and Moses, correct? Well, Moses relayed the message that “The LORD is your God, the LORD alone.” He was passionately, zealously monotheistic, as are Christians. If you claim to follow in the footsteps of the True Faith, how can you be opposed to Moses (and more importantly, Y’H’W’H) with polytheism?

I’ve never gotten quite where you guys are coming from.

See my quotation of Catechism paragraph 460. Your statement that we in “no way” become gods seems to contradict it.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/460.htm

Mormons interpret verses in the Bible which speak of “one” God or God “alone” as part of their henotheism. They believe their God is their father and that while there may be or indeed are other Gods that they are to worship only their God.

There are many scriptures which seem to imply or even state the presence of more than one god. Here’s some examples:

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

Psalm 136:2
Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever.

Daniel 2:47
The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”

Daniel 11:36
"The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

 

[cestusdei]

When we say, “his god is his money”, we don’t mean that money has some sort of independent existence or consciousness. So when scripture speaks of “gods” it doesn’t mean that Zeus and Hera are out there. Mormonism’s god is not at all like the Christian one. That’s why we baptize mormons who convert.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

More likely it would be a shorter, “Well done thou good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of thy Lord.”

Or maybe more of a “Come unto me thou blessed. There is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen.”

Alma

Jesus speaks old English?

 

[cor]

So when scripture speaks of “gods” it doesn’t mean that Zeus and Hera are out there.

Then, what does it mean? Or do you not know? (I don’t know)

 

[Chris_LaRock]

It’s talking about humans who claim to be gods, idols and fictional gods that the pagans worshiped.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[FCEGM]

It’s talking about humans who claim to be gods, idols and fictional gods that the pagans worshiped.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Yes, Chris; and in the Old Testament GOD makes it clear that He is the One and Only:

“Before me no god was formed and there will be none after me; I, I am YAHWEH, there is no other Savior than I.” Isaiah 43:10ff.

“So I must state my case against you once more, Yahweh declares, and state my case against your children’s children: Cross to the isles of the Kittim and look, send to Kedar and carefully observe, see if anything like this has happened before! Does a nation change its gods? - and these are not gods at all!” Jeremiah 2:9-11.

We can become god-like (Theosis) by our participating in the life of Christ in the bosom of the Father, but we can never by nature be what each Person of the Trinity is and has by virtue of their Divine Nature.

We by the grace of the Incarnation of the Son may rise to share in that glory and already participate in it, though often unawares, through our participation in Christ - initially through Baptism, and subsequently through faithfulness to the sacramental life of the Church.

Now humans may share in His perfection by the grace won for us in Christ. What we can never be is what God is in Himself. By His grace He allows us to participate in the perfection of His Divinity, but it is never ours on our own since we are creatures and remain so when in Glory. All this is a far cry from the god of the Mormons who is himself a glorified man.

 

[cor]

I think many modern scholars claim that the Jewish religion was actually originally henotheistic (i.e. they had one God and they followed Him but there were other Gods out there) but it gradually evolved into monotheism. They say this is reflected in the Bible. See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism#Israelite_beliefs_and_Judaism

It is generally uncontroversial that many of the Iron Age religions found in the land of Israel were henotheistic in practice. For example, the Moabites worshipped the god Chemosh, the Edomites, Qaus, both of whom were part of the greater Canaanite pantheon, headed by the chief god, El. The Canaanite pantheon consisted of El and Asherat as the chief deities, with 70 sons who were said to rule over each of the nations of the earth. These sons were the national gods worshipped within each region.

More recently, M.S. Smith’s synthesis of the Hebrew religion in the Iron Age has put forward the case that it, like those around it, was also henotheistic. The discovery of artifacts at Kuntillet 'Ajrud and Khirbet El-Qom have arguably shown that in at least some sections of Israelite society, Yahweh and Asherah were believed to coexist as a divine couple. Further evidence of an understanding of Yahweh existing within the Canaanite pantheon derives from syncretistic myths found within the Hebrew Bible itself. Various battles between Yahweh and Leviathan, Mot, the tanninim, and Yamm are already attested in the 14th century B.C.E. texts found at Ugarit (ancient Ras-Shamra). In some cases, Yahweh had replaced Baal, and in others, he had taken El’s roles.

Several Biblical stories allude to the belief that the Canaanite gods all existed and possessed the most power in the lands that worshipped them or in their sacred objects; their power was real and could be invoked by the people who patronised them. The Israelites may have considered the other gods demonic or evil, but they probably were not fully monotheistic before the Babylonian Captivity. For instance, in 1 Samuel 4, the Philistines fret before the second battle of Aphek when they learn that the Israelites are bearing the Ark of the Covenant, and therefore Yahweh, into battle. 2 Kings 3:27 has been interpreted as describing a human sacrifice in Moab that led the invading Israelite army to fear the power of Chemosh. In 2 Kings 5, Naaman insists on transporting Israelite soil back with him to Syria in the belief that only then will Yahweh have power. Also, in the Book of Jonah, Jonah attempts to set sail to Tarshish in the belief that Yahweh will not reach him there. Jonah was written long after the Exile; hence, its author believes in Yahweh as a universal deity and Jonah is thwarted.

An additional paragraph is at the link.