What would Mohammad say of the 21st century Muslim World?

[Booklover]

There’s really only the example of 4 caliphs, all of whom happened to be Companions of the Prophet, each of them being legitimate scholars and jurists in their own right.

And very “peaceful” as well!

Actions of the 4 “Rightly Guided” Caliphs

ABU BAKR’S REIGN
A.H. 11 (622, 623) Abu Bakr makes war upon the people of Yamana who wish to leave Islam.
A.H. 12 Muslim armies attack the Christians in Palestine.

UMAR’S REIGN
A.H. 13 Conquest of Damascus, Syria.
A.H. 14 & 15 Syria and Palestine conquered.
A.H. 15 – 21 Iraq, Southern Persia, and Egypt conquered.

UTHMAN’S REIGN
A.H. 24 Conquest in Northern Persia and Armenia.
A.H. 28 Attack on Cyprus.

ALI’S REIGN
During Ali’s reign there were two civil wars. The first Islamic civil war occurred between Ali, Muhammad’s son-in-law, and Aisha, Abu Bakr’s daughter (a child Muhammad consummated a marriage with when she was 9 years old). 13,000 Muslims died killing each other as Ali defeated Aisha. Not long thereafter Ali fought Muwawiyya, Abu Sufyan’s son. Muwawiyya was appointed governor of Damascus / Syria, and moved against Ali to take power. In the end, Ali won out as the two sides negotiated a peace of some sorts. Not long afterwards, Ali was murdered by Muslims, as was Uthman prior to him, and also Umar who was killed by a slave. In any case, after the ‘rightly guided Caliphs had all met untimely violent deaths through murder and assassination, Muwawiyya then assumed power as Caliph.
As you can tell from that brief chronological summary, the Caliphs made war as aggressively as any conquering nation or people in human history. They went on conquest after conquest. The message the rightly guided leaders imposed with the sword at their hands was the same as Muhammad’s: convert, pay extortion taxes, or die. Islam, real Islam, their Islam, was a religion of war, oppression, and conquest.

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

“Hooters Rules!!!”

Wait, that would be the 21st century American world…

“Why can’t we get some of those restaurants here?”

 

[planten]

the caliphate is a form of dictatorship. anyway what you said is a curious thing, do you have a source for it?

**The Caliphate may be a form of dictatorship. But there is a lot of difference. Caliph does not dictate from himself. He follows a law given by God. That is a major difference. Otherwise, you have your kings. And dictators. What they do?

Here I would like to mention the work of the greatest philosofer Socrates in his book “The Republic”. The best type of Government (or Governance) he mentions is a philosopher king and not democracy that you are suggesting. A Khalifah (Caliph) is more likely as a philosopher king and not a dictator.

The curious thing mentioned by sis Amy is found in a Hadith. It is very true thing.

I have noted your long post (#15). I will reply to that separately. Thanks.**

 

[planten]

lets take it piece by piece.

1. “a leader who holds and/or abuses an extraordinary amount of personal power”

The Caliph holds an extraordinary amount of personal power. Nobody could overrule him.

**But people can question him in the open, as did a woman, in Madinah, questioned Umar (2nd Caliph) about the limitation on the dowary. The Caliph recanted his orders immediately and admitted that women have more knowledge than Umar.

At another occasion, one man questioned the Caliph about some cloth distribution…**

1. “the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly”.

There are no legislative assemblies in the Caliphate.
Wrong. But please do not be offended. The Caliph does not make any laws. Laws are already made (in the Quran) for him and all others. He has to follow those laws too. So he need not make any laws except some administrative matters.

About legislative assemblies (there is no need to legislate), the above words apply. Remember that there is an advisory body. It is written in the Quran that “their affairs are decided by mutual consultation”. i.e. called “Mushaawarat”. In all important matters,The Caliph takes opinion of the eldest leaders. But he need not agree to their opinion. His own decision will be final. i.e. He can over-rule the opinions.

1. “suspension of elections and of civil liberties”

Caliphs rule for life. There are no elections that can replace a caliph.

True. No Harm. There is an initial election. After that no need to replace. Please remember that Caliph is elected by the high class submitting Muslims who fear Allah. Also remember that Caliph is made by Allah only. Nobody can become a Khalifah himself.
Even today, let any one try. Pope or Bush or Saudi King or any great man. Let them try to become a Caliph. They cannot become. Khalifah is made byGod.
The Muslims vote. But the will of Allah is at the back of their collective decisions. Also, there cannot be any Khilafat if there are no God fearing people. Ihope I have explained few things.

1. “rule by decree”

Caliphs makes rules by decree.

The Decree is as per Quran and Sunnah.

1. “repression of political opponents without abiding by rule of law procedures, single-party state”

Political opponents are not tolerated in the Caliphate.

**Could be. Thank God there are no election problems and no false promises… It is not too bad if understood properly.

Do not forget that state is a spiritual state.No politics is needed. Politics is the root cause of all problems too. The lesser the politics, the better.
**

1. “cult of personality”

Caliphs are practically the Popes of Islam. Highly venerated supreme religious leaders.

** You said it very well. At least you involved another religious head in your objections. It could be similar to the Popes system. So there are Protestants too.

But do not worry. A good Pope will be the one who has the real good religion. I do not blame or drag the Catholics into this now. As far as Muslims are concerned, their caliph will not be like a Pope, we hope. He will establish a spiritual, welfare state.**

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Caliphate may be a form of dictatorship. But there is a lot of difference. Caliph does not dictate from himself. He follows a law given by God. That is a major difference.

I agree.

But people can question him in the open, as did a woman, in Madinah, questioned Umar (2nd Caliph) about the limitation on the dowary. The Caliph recanted his orders immediately and admitted that women have more knowledge than Umar.

The woman was lucky that the Caliph was in a good mood. She did not really have any political power to make the Caliph listen.

About legislative assemblies (there is no need to legislate), the above words apply. Remember that there is an advisory body. It is written in the Quran that “their affairs are decided by mutual consultation”. i.e. called “Mushaawarat”. In all important matters,The Caliph takes opinion of the eldest leaders. But he need not agree to their opinion. His own decision will be final. i.e. He can over-rule the opinions.

But do these assemblies have the political power to overrule the Caliph? If yes, then please provide an example.

Could be. Thank God there are no election problems and no false promises… It is not too bad if understood properly.

political opponents are needed to keep the ruling power in check. without opponents the ruler could do whatever he wants.

So maybe now we can agree that the Caliphate is more similar to dictatorship than democracy. the only difference between the caliphate and dictatorship is that the caliph gets its laws from the koran, while a dictator can invent any laws that suits him.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Allah Akhbar! Why have you not conquered the world yet?

I agree.

CDL

 

[MHalsey]

Allah Akhbar! Why have you not conquered the world yet?

Israel is a nation now!!! What the…!!!

 

[bpbasilphx]

Probably something to the effect of “Avoid spending eternity in hell with me and turn in faith fo the REAL Jesus, not the one I made up.”

 

[paarsurrey]

What would Mohammad say of the 21st century Muslim World?

Hi

O’ Muslims; I brought for you peaceful Quran from GodAllahYHWH
full of reasonable, logical and rational arguments useful for peaceful dialogue. You should use it accordingly for the development of physical, moral and spiritual needs of humanity. Serve the humanity accordingly.

Thanks

 

[Sam_777]

Sister Amy;3652889:

Muhammad said that after him would be 30 years of caliphate, followed by kingdoms. And then the kingdoms would be followed by dictatorships. So I don’t think he would be surprised at the dictatorships of the Muslim world today (in case you didn’t know, that’s what kind of government they have… not Islam.)

the caliphate is a form of dictatorship. anyway what you said is a curious thing, do you have a source for it?

Well, here is the Hadith by Musnad Ahmed, but it doesn’t say “kingdoms would be followed by dictatorships” at all:
hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=20918&doc=6&IMAGE=%DA%D1%D6+%C7%E1%CD%CF%ED%CB

It only says “30 years of caliphate followed by kingdoms”, but I wonder how Muslims would justify that 30 years from 6th century till the 20th:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate

 

[swariffin]

Hi

O’ Muslims; I brought for you peaceful Quran from GodAllahYHWH
full of reasonable, logical and rational arguments useful for peaceful dialogue. You should use it accordingly for the development of physical, moral and spiritual needs of humanity. Serve the humanity accordingly.

Thanks

Dear Paar,

I agree that basically Quran teach the follower to be a good man. BBut following the Quran word by word in 21st century condition, meaning supressing one’s logic to the point of blind faith. You cannot take Quran literally word by word, without new interpretation.

 

[planten]

And very “peaceful” as well!

Actions of the 4 “Rightly Guided” Caliphs

ABU BAKR’S REIGN
A.H. 11 (622, 623) Abu Bakr makes war upon the people of Yamana who wish to leave Islam.
A.H. 12 Muslim armies attack the Christians in Palestine.

UMAR’S REIGN
A.H. 13 Conquest of Damascus, Syria.
A.H. 14 & 15 Syria and Palestine conquered.
A.H. 15 – 21 Iraq, Southern Persia, and Egypt conquered.

UTHMAN’S REIGN
A.H. 24 Conquest in Northern Persia and Armenia.
A.H. 28 Attack on Cyprus.

ALI’S REIGN
During Ali’s reign there were two civil wars. The first Islamic civil war occurred between Ali, Muhammad’s son-in-law, and Aisha, Abu Bakr’s daughter (a child Muhammad consummated a marriage with when she was 9 years old). 13,000 Muslims died killing each other as Ali defeated Aisha. Not long thereafter Ali fought Muwawiyya, Abu Sufyan’s son. Muwawiyya was appointed governor of Damascus / Syria, and moved against Ali to take power. In the end, Ali won out as the two sides negotiated a peace of some sorts. Not long afterwards, Ali was murdered by Muslims, as was Uthman prior to him, and also Umar who was killed by a slave. In any case, after the ‘rightly guided Caliphs had all met untimely violent deaths through murder and assassination, Muwawiyya then assumed power as Caliph.
As you can tell from that brief chronological summary, the Caliphs made war as aggressively as any conquering nation or people in human history. They went on conquest after conquest. The message the rightly guided leaders imposed with the sword at their hands was the same as Muhammad’s: convert, pay extortion taxes, or die. Islam, real Islam, their Islam, was a religion of war, oppression, and conquest.

Vickie

The easy reply to all of the above is: "You asked for it."

There was no need to pick a fight with the Muslims when they were very weak and just getting up. There was no need to bring large christian forces on the Arab borders.

There was a very good advice to the children of Israel in Book of Song of Soloman 2 verse 7:
7 I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up , nor awake my Love, till he please.

The same subject seems to be important because it is repeated in 3:5 and 8:4. It is telling the Israelis that when the Love of Soloman (The new prophet) comes, they should not disturb him nor wake him up untill he gets up himself. In that case he will also not disturb the Israelis.

But the forses of Kaiser did not understand the meaning of the Songs of Soloman and tried to pick a fight against the Muslims too quickly. The Muslim forces never wanted to fight any one.

 

[whiteknite]

If muslims are supposed to be the ultimate religon…
Why do you blow eachother up??
As a westerner…It seems a very dangerous religon to be in…
Catholics had there turn but i believe we are supposed to have a better understanding of life…
To kill people because they have different understandings of life dont mean they should be stoned or hung…
Im pretty sure if God was watching us then he would turn his back on all faiths…You all make me sick

 

[Sam_777]

Im pretty sure if God was watching us then he would turn his back on all faiths…

“that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
(Matthew 5:45).

God The Most High is merciful, I don’t think he abandoned us, he is giving us a chance after a chance after a chance to come back to him, and he is giving us these new age technologies to discover him more and more.

 

[whiteknite]

“that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
(Matthew 5:45).

God The Most High is merciful, I don’t think he abandoned us, he is giving us a chance after a chance after a chance to come back to him, and he is giving us these new age technologies to discover him more and more.

TECHNOLOGIES!!!
Sam where killing eachother. Where killing the earth, Oil oil oil thats all i hear, Thats the blood of the earth and we are draining it…
I have said it before and i will say it again.
We are like cancer to this earth…

 

[Sam_777]

TECHNOLOGIES!!!
Sam where killing eachother. Where killing the earth, Oil oil oil thats all i hear, Thats the blood of the earth and we are draining it…
I have said it before and i will say it again.
We are like cancer to this earth…

Well, abusing of technology will makes it a weapon in evil’ hands, but using it right, will show us the way of God.

 

[whiteknite]

Well, abusing of technology will makes it a weapon in evil’ hands, but using it right, will show us the way of God.

How it will show us the way to a so called spirit that only ever kills to show how holy it is doesnt make sense…
Killing is killing no matter what biblical text you put it in!!
Reading the old testament is full of people killing because God tells them too!!
But we are supposed to be in the new so called civilised world but still people are killing in the name of God.
Arent we supposed to turn the other cheek??

Weapon is a weapon no matter whos hands its in…Its a killing implament.

 

[Sam_777]

Arent we supposed to turn the other cheek??

Yes we are.
In the OT God was raising & teaching us, but in the NT God have fulfilled that by showing us his love through Jesus, therefore we shouldn’t kill anymore.

 

[whiteknite]

Yes we are.
In the OT God was raising & teaching us, but in the NT God have fulfilled that by showing us his love through Jesus, therefore we shouldn’t kill anymore.

Try telling that to the muslims,
And maybe a couple of your popes…
Early popes were soldiers too…

 

[inJESUS]

whiteknite, if you are so worried about killing, abuse, rape, hatred, ecc, take the example of Jesus and put your feet in cold water