What would you do if it were proven...?

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It is also, however, possible to prove that pancakes cause earthquakes to an individuals satisfaction - proves nowt. I’m very tempted to contend with the absolute veracity of the statement of regularity of occurance as well, without even checking what you’re talking about! But that would just be reckless… or maybe just irresponsible 😛
Hi mystic, well no it doesn’t prove anything. But it does mean that the question is valid and it answers the objection “but you can’t prove it” which was the point really.

As for the regularity of occurrence, well off the top of my head I know about half a dozen people who have become convinced that the Christian God exists, and a score or so who’ve become convinced he doesn’t, as well as a couple who have become convinced that Hinduism is right… Obviously that just anecdotal, but a quick check around online religious conversion figures should give some stronger support.
 
Hi,

I’m new here on CAF but thought I’d post a question which interests me.

For those who are theists - “What would you do if it were proven to your satisfaction that God does not exist

For those who are atheists - “What would you do if it were proven to your satisfaction that God does exist

Thanks for taking the time.
I’m pretty sure the answer was contained in the question. If there was a proof for God’s non-existence and I was satisfied with it, then I would probably become an atheist.

That said, what it would take to satisfy me, I’m not sure for I’m fairly satisfied in what I have reasoned out regarding the existence of God.

-Prophesy
 
I’m pretty sure the answer was contained in the question. If there was a proof for God’s non-existence and I was satisfied with it, then I would probably become an atheist.

That said, what it would take to satisfy me, I’m not sure for I’m fairly satisfied in what I have reasoned out regarding the existence of God.

-Prophesy
good answer. 👍

If you became an atheist, would your behavior change much?** Would you reconsider your morals**, whether on a case by case basis or in entirety? For instance, [if you are an obedient Catholic now] would you start using birth control/condoms? Would you feel differently about abortion? Would you feel more accepting of homosexuality?
Are there any particular Catholic teachings that you would gladly give up if you found out being an obedient Catholic was pointless (with regards to salvation)?
^Those are issues that I am particularly interested in.^ They are just examples; if they are not a big concern to you, maybe you can think of some things that would change. Or maybe you would not change at all! I am just curious.
 
good answer. 👍

If you became an atheist, would your behavior change much?** Would you reconsider your morals**, whether on a case by case basis or in entirety? For instance, [if you are an obedient Catholic now] would you start using birth control/condoms? Are there any particular Catholic teachings that you would gladly give up if you found out being an obedient Catholic was pointless (with regards to salvation)?
Would you accept the scientific/medical definition of the start of pregnancy, which is that life begins at implantation, or stick with the Catholic definition, which is life begins at fertilization?
Would you feel more accepting of homosexuality?
^Those are issues that I feel particular about.^ They are just examples; if they are irrelevent to you, maybe you can think of some things that would change. Or maybe you would not change at all! I am just curious.
That post is a little harshly presumptuous. Figuring myself from what I am now, I don’t see appeal in artificial birth control (nor did I when I was non-religious). Also, I would accept the scientific definition of conception, but not the political one (that begins with implantion). I’d probably be fairly similar to my pro-life atheist friends.

My feelings about same-sex marriage is this currently:

The State should not have the power to organize contracts of marriage, that would remain a function for religious institutions. Whether or not the state wishes to authorize same-sex civil unions (hair splitting is a favourite hobby of mine) that is the will of the State, but they should not put themselves above the institutions of religion (that’s just a idea regarding liberty, at least two of my pro-life atheist friends have voiced this opinion also).

What’d be my biggest changes? I’d not have the bookshelf I have, I wouldn’t attend any religious functions and I’d probably act way more busy and probably be a more stressful person compared to who I am.

-Prophesy
 
That post is a little harshly presumptuous. Figuring myself from what I am now, I don’t see appeal in artificial birth control (nor did I when I was non-religious). Also, I would accept the scientific definition of conception, but not the political one (that begins with implantion). I’d probably be fairly similar to my pro-life atheist friends.

My feelings about same-sex marriage is this currently:

The State should not have the power to organize contracts of marriage, that would remain a function for religious institutions. Whether or not the state wishes to authorize same-sex civil unions (hair splitting is a favourite hobby of mine) that is the will of the State, but they should not put themselves above the institutions of religion (that’s just a idea regarding liberty, at least two of my pro-life atheist friends have voiced this opinion also).

What’d be my biggest changes? I’d not have the bookshelf I have, I wouldn’t attend any religious functions and I’d probably act way more busy and probably be a more stressful person compared to who I am.

-Prophesy
Oh sorry if my presumptiousness was insulting or whatever. These are just some examples of issues that I personally disagree with the Church’s official stance. I know Catholics who don’t obey the Church on these issues, so if it were proven to them that God does not exist, I don’t think it would change them much. (Now that is presumptious!) I am just curious if/which of your morals would change. Which you have now answered. 🙂

Why do you think you would be more stressed?
 
Why do you think you would be more stressed?
Because my faith is not only enjoyable and relaxing, but it let’s me turn off the world for a bit and unwind in a way I don’t think I’d be able to do otherwise.

-Prophesy
 
Because my faith is not only enjoyable and relaxing, but it let’s me turn off the world for a bit and unwind in a way I don’t think I’d be able to do otherwise.

-Prophesy
Oh I see. Is there anything in particular about your faith that does this, ie prayer? Anything stand out to you or is it just a general sense of peace that you get practicing your faith?
 
Then you can show us in your own words how they do that and why their arguments are equally plausible as the Christian historical proofs or evidences regarding Jesus Christ’s life death and resurrection. If you can’t do that, then I will be forced to assume that you are just making unsupportable assertions in support of an objectively worthless agenda.
Hi MoM2,*

This isn’t something I want to get into in depth, but arguments which were recently presented to me by a Hindu friend of mine included:*
  • regular and direct contact with the different avatars of their god (through possession etc).
  • the correlation between events from their religious records (including the bhadvad Gita) and archeology.
  • the powers of divination and others which people recieve when in a trance.
  • seniority (it’s one of the oldest surviving religions)
Etc.*

They were of course not terribly convincing reasons to me. I’m sure they won’t be to you either. But they were to him. Equally the reasons given by christians as to why christianity is most likely to be right aren’t very convincing to me (or to Hindus) but they are to Christians.**
 
Oh I see. Is there anything in particular about your faith that does this, ie prayer? Anything stand out to you or is it just a general sense of peace that you get practicing your faith?
Prayer, sacraments, liturgy and being part of something ancient but is still alive. Those are all helpful.

But I’d also loose an awareness as well. Many of the ideas or my interests in varying fields (such as bioethics) are derivative of trying to understand Church teaching.

-Prophesy
 
G-ds substance is not synonymous with existence. G-d is the act of existing. These are different ontological objects. We are panen-theists not pantheists.*
Ok, will use the term “act of existing” instead.
Whatever can be said to exist is dependent on the act of existing for its manifestation. It doesn’t matter if its a dimensional reference frame or a snickers bar.*
No problem, so if we work on the assumption for the moment that the act of existing is done by a dimensional reference frame (because a snickers bar sounds a bit silly). That would seem like a useful way to get to an answer to the OP.
G-d cannot be dependent on anything else for His existence. If *that scenario happened I would know it wasn’t G-d. *
No it wouldn’t be G-d who had come to earth, because in this scenario G-d is a dimensional reference frame. What has come to earth in this scenario is a supreme being, (creator of humanity, lord of heaven, father, son and holy ghost etc) it would be what I would call God. But it would not be the act of existence (G-d).

So are you saying that you would cease to be a Christian in this scenario?*Or cease to follow Jesus’ teaching? (since Jesus would be back on earth and saying that the act of existence is a dimensional reference frame. Or would you accept that the christian God exists but is not the act of existing? Or would you follow done other course?
You must be kidding.
Er no, perhaps we mean different things by the term negation? From a look on wiki, negation seems to refer to the inverse of a statement (the example given features sentences like “I am a chicken” and the negation being “I am not a chicken”). This matches with my own understanding of the term.*

Could you explain in what way the negation of “G-d is the act of existing” is “nothing exists”? Thanks.
G-d stated his existence as I AM. The documents all corroborate each others narrative and as a whole the fulfillment of Messianic Prophecy mathematically verifies the Truth of Christianity.
Corroborating documents sounds like documentary evidence which is very different from mathematical proof. Is it documentary evidence you were pointing to here?
G-ds existence is a logical tautology the negation of which results in a contradiction. Act of existing=act of not existing. The entire idea of “nothing exists” is a logical contradiction. noThing=someThing. The only possible state of reality is to be. *
Yes, as I said it’s a tautology if you call G-d the act of existing. In other words to say:
  1. G-d is the act of existing.
  2. Existence exists
  3. Therefore G-d exists.*
Reduces to:
  1. Existence exists.
Which is a tautology hence irrelevant.*It tells us absolutely nothing about anything.
I am not conflating them. They are the same word. They mean the same thing, "god’ is the word in the way you mean it, only its not possible in our epistemology, what you really mean is some being less than G-d. Like an idol, a statue or a tree. The nature of G-d in the way you think of Him is nothing like what Christians actually believe. I wouldn’t believe in what you call god either.
Interesting, of course many christians in fact do believe in God being exactly what I have described - a supreme, loving, father figure with infinite power, omnipresence etc.*

As for this being “less than G-d”, I’d argue it is actually more. It’s certainly more specific. As discussed above if you simply define G-d as “the act of existing” you make G-d rather irrelevant. It’s only when you add the other characteristics such as being an active agent that God becomes something worth discussion.
Christianity exists because the fulfillment of Messianic Prophecies centuries and millennium after they were written. Mathematical certainty is the only reason we are here.*
Hmmm, why do you say that mathematical certainty is the only reason we are here? What do you mean by that exactly?*
Google a book Science Speaks You can get a .pdf. *You can also get a lot more information from various sites on Messianic prophecy.
Your description above suggests this is likely to be a review of documentation evidence and some probabilistic analysis. Is that right?*
 
Hi,

I’m new here on CAF but thought I’d post a question which interests me.

For those who are theists - “What would you do if it were proven to your satisfaction that God does not exist

For those who are atheists - “What would you do if it were proven to your satisfaction that God does exist

Thanks for taking the time.
If it were proven to my satisfaction that God did not exist, I would become a Buddhist.
 
Interesting that you both say Buddhism. Could you say what in particular about Buddhism appeals to you as an alternative?
Not an easy question to answer. Obviously part of it is that Buddhism apparently includes an atheistic alternative, so it would still be on the table, but beyond that, on the positive side, I think it also offers a sincere and intelligent way to attempt to understand and live with some kind of awareness of the big picture, of what the world is and of our place in it.
 
Hi mystic, well no it doesn’t prove anything. But it does mean that the question is valid and it answers the objection “but you can’t prove it” which was the point really.

As for the regularity of occurrence, well off the top of my head I know about half a dozen people who have become convinced that the Christian God exists, and a score or so who’ve become convinced he doesn’t, as well as a couple who have become convinced that Hinduism is right… Obviously that just anecdotal, but a quick check around online religious conversion figures should give some stronger support.
Actually, I’d say in the UK, when the results of the latest census come out, there will be a dramatic shift towards atheism. This is not because atheism is a more rational belief, or more ethically sound - but because it has been promoted excessively in the media over here recently, and theism demonised even more so. The fact that atheism often gains popularity particularly in cultures where we are so esconced in exclusivistically human-constructed environments, however, and where media proliferation is absolutely pervasive, strike me as interesting factors.

Which post is this referring to anyway? Must admit, can’t quite remember…
 
O.P., if it were satisfactorily proved that God not only lacks existence, but that it is impossible for God to exist, the first thing I’d do is go find a quiet spot and indulge in the male urge as quickly as possible. You can’t just hold this volatile stuff in if there’s no God, and thus no sin! I suppose the next thing I’d do is weep for all my wasted time, and then go home and listen to some Baroque music really loud before killing myself.
 
O.P., if it were satisfactorily proved that God not only lacks existence, but that it is impossible for God to exist, the first thing I’d do is go find a quiet spot and indulge in the male urge as quickly as possible. You can’t just hold this volatile stuff in if there’s no God, and thus no sin! I suppose the next thing I’d do is weep for all my wasted time, and then go home and listen to some Baroque music really loud before killing myself.
Now thats cold reality for ya. Personally, I think i would go crazy. Life would turn in to a hilarious comedy in which people strive for a meaning and a value which doesn’t really exist. My emotional and moral experiences would be telling me there is a God while at the same time my rational experiences would be telling me there is no God. Every now and then i would feel a sense of hope and pray, only to realize that i had forgotten the harsh truth. There is no God. Such a reality is utterly ridiculous and pointless to me.

What a nightmare.

Luckily such a reality only exists in the minds of those who have something to lose by admitting or believing in Gods existence. I mean, if one doesn’t have anything to lose by having hope, then who in their right minds would promote the belief that there is no objective purpose meaning or moral value in our lives. No one in their right mind would say to them selves everyday that their life is worthless and has no more true value than cow dung covered with flies eggs, especially if they have no rational proof to believe so. And no one, that has ever been emotionally wounded, can cast themselves in a positive light without having faith and hope in the fact that their lives have true existential value. Everybody knows that there is such a thing as “rational emotions”; this is to say that there is a right way to feel about something and a wrong way to feel about something. We don’t call people crazy simply to categorize a distinct set of behaviors, but rather the word exists because we recognizes in someones objective existence something which ought not be the case, something which goes against our true nature. We recognize an absence of emotional sanity. Something is truly wrong, not just in our subjective opinion but rather in the objective nature of some person. There is an objective standard of what an emotionally rational person ought to be, and most of us know that we should strive to live up to that standard; that we should all love each-other; but we are held back by our selfish passions. We all know that it is truly evil to rape a child. We all know deep down that there is a moral law, that we ought to follow.

Atheism would be understandable and justified if their was absolute proof that there is no meaning purpose of moral value. But if there is no proof, why would you want to remain agnostic or atheist on the subject rather than have hope and faith in the existential fulfillment of ones being?

Unless your one of those people who would rather be the God of their own lives; i see no good reason to not have faith in something so important. Unless your crazy. In fact i think that a conscious atheism which is grounded in desire rather than knowledge is a form of insanity.
 
Atheism would be understandable and justified if their was absolute proof that there is no meaning purpose of moral value. But if there is no proof, why would you want to remain agnostic or atheist on the subject rather than have hope and faith in the existential fulfillment of ones being?

Unless you’]r[e] one of those people who would rather be the God of their own lives; i see no good reason to not have faith in something so important. Unless you’]r[e] crazy. In fact i think that a conscious atheism which is grounded in desire rather than knowledge is a form of insanity.
How can rejection or doubt of supernatural things be a form of insanity? :confused:

It’s hard if not impossible to have faith where there is none. It’s one thing to have a little bit of faith and try to convince/help someone develop this faith. But sorry, it’s just absent in me. I don’t feel His presense at all.

CCC:
“Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.”

“Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit”

So it’s not tooootally my fault right? 😉

“To practice the “virtue” of faith, one must be willing to suspend one’s sight and one’s judgment; one must be willing to live with the unintelligible, with that which cannot be conceptualized or integrated into the rest of one’s knowledge, and to induce a trance like illusion of understanding. One must be willing to repress one’s critical faculty and hold it as one’s guilt; one must be willing to drown any questions that rise in protest—to strangle any trust of reason convulsively seeking to assert its proper function as the protector of one’s life and cognitive integrity.”
~Nathaniel Branden

MOM2, may I ask what are your thoughts on theists who have drastically different beliefs than yours, like polytheists or satanists? Do you think they are less crazy than atheists? Just curious if you have a formed opinion on that sort of thing.
 
“Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit”

So it’s not tooootally my fault right? 😉
You cannot confuse “the grace and helps of the Holy Spirit” with tyrannical absolutism. Perhaps you could say disobedience is not totally your fault if the Catechism said “the urgings and commands of the Holy Spirit”, but it does not say that. Think of the Holy Spirit as a glass of refreshing water given to you, and placed on a table before your eyes. You can very easily dismiss the water, and say “it’s poisoned”, or some such rubbish. God has no obligation to do anything to, for, by, with, or in you. He exists totally, and you exist simply because He has deigned that you may exist. 🙂

It’s totally, completely, 100%, full-stop your fault if you ignore the great gift that is given you. The Holy Spirit of God has been poured out upon the entire world by our Lord Jesus Christ; that’s what we believe. There’s no excuse.
 
How can rejection or doubt of supernatural things be a form of insanity? :confused:
Its quite telling that you left out a huge portion of my post where I make it clear that there is a “experiential basis” for faith. Let me correct you there. I never said that to doubt the supernatural is irrational. In some cases it is perfectly reasonable to reject a supernatural belief or any circular belief if the nature of that belief does not allow the absolute moral fulfilment of a human person, or does not make rational sense of the fact that I am a person, or is irrelevant to my existential fulfilment. To seek objective purpose is to seek the first cause, since that is the root of all being and thus the root of all objective purpose; the same is true of objective morality.
The nature of some beliefs are evidently more sophisticated and explain more than others. Its best to choose a belief that makes the best sense of things.
Beginning with my experiences, If I ask my self “what would be the right thing to do?”, then I must also ask myself “what is the nature of good”? Where does it come from? Does this or that religion or supernatural being make the best sense of its existence?

If you read my post again, then you will see quite clearly, I said that to reject the objective moral value of a living human child or human life in general is to be emotionally irrational. It is a denial which is ultimately rooted in a desire to decide for his or her self what has value and purpose (to be ones own God). He or she is in denial because the person knows that to admit or have faith in the the fact that we have objective moral value will also require one to admit that there is an objective moral law for which we exist to fulfil. We exist for a moral purpose initiated by the first cause, the ultimate reality; which strongly implies that the nature of the first cause has, among other attributes, a personal intelligence. Atheism is irrational because it comes at the expense of ones life having objective meaning, moral value, and purpose. It is to reduce oneself to the level of cow dung, removing all moral distinction, in-order to achieve a degree of autonomy. It is to strip oneself of the objective moral significance and meaning of having “humanity” and the “dignity” which is expressed fully through the accusation of an indefinite and morally secure existence in the eternal happiness of heaven. The rational atheist makes these sacrifices, not because there is evidence against it, but rather so he or she can achieve some kind of pleasure. It is irrational because it contradicts are natural desire to be objectively, existentially, and morally fulfilled in truth. It is irrational because it is a denial of something which exists in human experience the the fact is, human life does appear to have objective value, purpose and meaning; and it is by that experience that we are able to understand that some objective acts, such as given up ones life for a greater good, are truly virtuous, and acts such as rape are truly evil, not just in our opinion, but rather it is the expression of the act itself to which we are spectators which manifests that meaning for us once we understand what a person is.

A psycho is absent of any belief in the moral value of another person. True objective “Mental health” implies and requires that one seeks only that which absolutely fulfils, actualises, and morally secures ones mental health in existence. Agnostic-Atheism with no possibility of faith, brutally opposes the existential objectivity of the possibility of humanity, while presenting a superficial subjective pseudo-moral representation of humanity in its place, fooling peoples natural sense of moral truth. When in fact the very nature of their beliefs limit such an ideal to being nothing more than a meaningless subjective irrational fantasy posing as truth.

If somebody says do good, they are telling me that I should do that which is sane and rational insofar as committing actions which do not contradict my objective fulfilment. Faith in the fact that ones life has objective moral value is the most important and rational step forward if one truly values the fulfilment of his or her own objective existence and perceives objective moral value in the lives others especially children. If you can see, like I can see, that raping a child is wrong, then we are admitting that there is an objective moral law. The fact that the acceptance of such a belief requires one to believe in a transcendence of physical reality (that the real world is more than physical) is simply a secondary fact and a necessary fact before we can rationally consider the objects, which those concepts signify, as having a meaningful root in objective truth.
 
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