What would you do if your new pastor imposed a uniform for lay liturgical ministers?

[DarkLight]

Not at all. Dress shirts aren’t more expensive than athletic gear or casual attire. They have dress shirts for sale for $19.99 at Macy’s this week. The red Geoffrey Beene shirt I am wearing now , I bought at Macy’s for $9.99 6 months ago. Bought the blue Countess Mara tie for $12 in the same store.

The expensive clothes are Nike and Under Armour. Not dress clothes.

This is one area of life where buying men’s shirts and buying women’s shirts really, really, really is not equivalent.

For women, especially women who aren’t the same body shape as your average dress shirt, dress shirts most certainly are more expensive than casual attire. I doubt most women in the U.S. would be shocked at the prices I’ve quoted.

 

[Duesenberg]

A more reasonable one would be a button down or polo shirt with khaki or dress pants for men

So your problem is with the colors? Otherwise what you wrote would be fine.

for women a blouse or shirt with sleeves that cover the shoulders and no cleavage, khakis, dress pants, or a skirt that is at least knee length or a dress that covers the shoulders and is at least knee length.

So again, it’s about colors?

 

[Duesenberg]

Appeal to the diocese to overrule the parish priest for implementing a draconian and inappropriate “uniform”.

Naw. In this day and age with parish politics being what they are, a capable pastor would run this past his ordinary before implementation. While my pastor would never say anything about how anyone dressed, I’m fairly sure my bishop would approve this non-draconian and most appropriate dress code – particularly given some of the things he has witnessed in my parish.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

For women, especially women who aren’t the same body shape as your average dress shirt, dress shirts most certainly are more expensive than casual attire. I doubt most women in the U.S. would be shocked at the prices I’ve quoted.

I am astonished you have to even explain this.

It is remarkable that it even need be said. …And I am a European priest.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Yes, it’s mostly about requiring specific colors. I also wouldn’t require women to have a collar and I wouldn’t dictate socks/hose or footwear. Even saying no flip flops is iffy to me. I’ve seen women wear nice flip flop style sandals with skirts and dresses and it looks fine. Luckily I’ve never seen a lay liturgical person wearing obviously inappropriate clothing at any mass I’ve been to. Maybe a little too casual for my taste at times such as khaki shorts on a man but otherwise people seem to make an effort to look respectable.

 

[Hereiam]

If the lay ministers really were dressed inappropriately, rather than just to your expectations, I would be surprised, and if they were dressed appropriately, except to your expectations and the pastor set a uniform code I would not quite be sure if I would be just be mildly shocked or wildly amused!

 

[Augustinian]

White dress shirts with dark trousers is a classic look.

True enough, but its not the only combination that looks put together

 

[Augustinian]

I am astonished you have to even explain this.

It is remarkable that it even need be said. …And I am a European priest.

A lot of men don’t buy many woman’s clothes, even as gifts. At least here in America. Maybe its different among European men.

 

[Duesenberg]

I would be disappointed to think an American bishop would be that ridiculous.

Nothing “ridiculous” about what I outlined in posting #1 of this thread. Your use of “ridiculous”, “draconian” and “inappropriate” in this thread are terribly misplaced.

I thank God I don’t live in an (arch)diocese where ideas are “instantly tossed into the rubbish bin” without careful review and discussion.

 

[DarkLight]

I am astonished you have to even explain this.

It is remarkable that it even need be said. …And I am a European priest.

I have found that many men, especially young men, don’t understand that western women’s clothing is quite a different beast than men’s.

There’s a lot more dimensions to get right - so for example, when it comes to tops, I need something not only in the right size but has the right ratios between my shoulders, bust, and waist, and has all of them in roughly the same place as those parts of my body. I can’t just walk into a clothing store, pick up a top in my size, and expect it to fit.

Quality is also a lot more variable. There’s been a trend lately in women’s clothing towards making tops extremely thin. Cheap tops tend especially to be thin, and thin tops aren’t modest because you can see everything through them. This is worse with light colors, especially white.

Also on quality, many of those cheap tops won’t last. You might be able to find a $20 blouse, but the odds are good that it will fall apart very quickly. Many women have stories of that top that’s been washed three times and looks like it’s years old.

All this to say, as a woman, if I want a top in a specific color that fits, isn’t so sheer as to be indecent, and will last more than a couple of months, I’d better be prepared to either spend a long time looking for it to pop up on sale or second-hand, or to shell out some cash.

I think the point of it is it’s probably a bad idea for men to set women’s dress codes without talking to a few women. “Solid color non-tee top that does not show cleavage and meets one’s pants or skirt” would be much easier. I think most of us have a top in our wardrobes that fits that.

 

[Duesenberg]

A lot of men don’t buy many woman’s clothes, even as gifts. At least here in America. Maybe its different among European men.

Don’t worry. There is little difference in the price of men’s and women’s clothing when it comes to basic staple pieces such as those under discussion.

 

[Duesenberg]

I was just thinking – the dress code I outlined is precisely that of my parish’s choir and that of the diocese’s choir. The only difference is that their dress code is even a bit tighter and includes neckties for the men.

Now I’m certain my bishop would approve what’s described in posting #1 – if it was coming from the pastor. He might be a little curious why the pastor was seeking his approval in the first place, but I’m sure he would give it.

 

[Duesenberg]

True enough, but its not the only combination that looks put together

You were equating it to “cults” and Mormons, which is ridiculous.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You were equating it to “cults” and Mormons, which is ridiculous.

The equation is a valid one.

 

[Duesenberg]

I also wouldn’t require women to have a collar

I would – unless there is a nice way to so “no cleavage.”

I wouldn’t dictate socks/hose or footwear.

Again, I would. Too many sneakers and shower sandals in the sanctuary.

 

[DarkLight]

Don’t worry. There is little difference in the price of men’s and women’s clothing when it comes to basic staple pieces such as those under discussion.

…yeah, this is very much not true. Also, part of the problem is “white blouse” is very much not a staple for most women. I don’t think I’ve owned one since junior high, and even then it was a white lace t-shirt style top. I don’t own collared shirts at all - they’re actually kind of hard to find and your average women’s dress shirt does not have a collar. Plus they’re fussier in fit than other shirts, so finding one that fits is harder.

I’ve actually been shopping for blouses recently. $50+ for a single, non-sheer white blouse in my size is pretty well on.

 

[DarkLight]

I would – unless there is a nice way to so “no cleavage.”

When it comes to women’s shirts, “collar” and “no cleavage” aren’t that related in any case. A lot of collared shirts for women have a v-neck thing going on up top and (depending on your height and anatomy) the top button might actually be at or below the cleavage. It’s not typical for women’s shirts to button all the way up to the collar the way men do when wearing ties.

 

[babochka]

Flip flops and a cassock - nightmare for rising from kneeling lol

I don’t know… women do it all the time.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I have found that many men, especially young men, don’t understand that western women’s clothing is quite a different beast than men’s.

There’s a lot more dimensions to get right - so for example, when it comes to tops, I need something not only in the right size but has the right ratios between my shoulders, bust, and waist, and has all of them in roughly the same place as those parts of my body. I can’t just walk into a clothing store, pick up a top in my size, and expect it to fit.

Quality is also a lot more variable. There’s been a trend lately in women’s clothing towards making tops extremely thin. Cheap tops tend especially to be thin, and thin tops aren’t modest because you can see everything through them. This is worse with light colors, especially white.

Also on quality, many of those cheap tops won’t last. You might be able to find a $20 blouse, but the odds are good that it will fall apart very quickly. Many women have stories of that top that’s been washed three times and looks like it’s years old.

All this to say, as a woman, if I want a top in a specific color that fits, isn’t so sheer as to be indecent, and will last more than a couple of months, I’d better be prepared to either spend a long time looking for it to pop up on sale or second-hand, or to shell out some cash.

I think the point of it is it’s probably a bad idea for men to set women’s dress codes without talking to a few women. “Solid color non-tee top that does not show cleavage and meets one’s pants or skirt” would be much easier. I think most of us have a top in our wardrobes that fits that.

I see. I have had a similar experience in that clerical shirts, properly fabricated here, are quite durable and long lasting, the fabric being substantial, the shirt giving service for years. One can have them where they both fit well and wear well and stand up well to use.

On the other hand, items that are imported from abroad, particularly from where labour is cheaper, one encounters very inferior quality, I have to say. It is poorly constructed and not well stitched together. The fabric is cheap – and sheer – so that one cannot get many uses out of it. I avoid such things as they are cheaper in the initial cost but one gets little value for the money paid.

I recently received the gift from an American couple of a clerical shirt and was absolutely astonished. It fit my neck – with nothing to spare – but the body of the shirt had enough material for almost a second me! I never encountered anything like that here, where we have a more tailored fit. I can wear it in the winter under a sweater and no one will see how it billows.

I looked at the label and it said “Made in China.” I don’t know if men in China are that extraordinary or if Chinese seamstresses have a concept of men being so…corpulent.

The fabric is quite thin and I don’t think it will survive many visits to the washing machine, so it will likely be in tatters by late Spring. Sending it out to a proper laundry would cause it to disintegrate. I had to reinforce the buttons with needle and thread as one came right off in my hand.

 

[babochka]

Duesenberg:

Don’t worry. There is little difference in the price of men’s and women’s clothing when it comes to basic staple pieces such as those under discussion.

…yeah, this is very much not true. Also, part of the problem is “white blouse” is very much not a staple for most women. I don’t think I’ve owned one since junior high, and even then it was a white lace t-shirt style top.

Agreed. I own no white shirts and no collared shirts. My husband only owns white t-shirts. All of his dress shirts are colored. Nor do any of my children have white clothing, except for my teenage daughter, who does have a white shirt. It is very nice and entirely appropriate for Mass, but it does not have a collar.