What would YOU do??

[sydney28]

One of my best friends is in her mid 40s and she and her husband have decided they finally want children after choosing not to have any for the last 12 years. Unable to get pregnant on their own, they have turned to IVF and are using an anonymous egg donor, rather than my friend’s own eggs.

I am 100% opposed to their decision in this process, but my friend is constantly wanting to talk to me about the process - “going on birth control for a month to regulate her cycle before they do the transfer” then “taking my hormone shots…” then “they are doing the transfer today so I have to be on bed rest for three days…” then “we saved a few embryos so we can try again in a few years”…etc, etc…

My friend is NOT Catholic, so she does not have the same opposition to the IVF process that the Catholic church does. However, it makes me very uncomfortable to listen to her talk about it all the time.

If I said something to her about it, I definitely risk losing our friendship, or at the very least, causing an awkward rift between us.

What would you do/say?

 

[Rascalking]

This is a tough one. It depends on the level of friendship, for the first thing.

I’d personally express my opinion in a way like, “Do you know that sometimes __________ (insert your moral qualms here)”

(I’m at a personal loss because I don’t know anything about IVF or stuff like it. Being a bachelor, it’s not something I deal with)

However, I do have friends who are not Christians, and they sometimes do things that make me cringe. I’ve never lost a friendship over it, but, there has been some awkward moments.

Praying for you…

 

[puzzleannie]

you don’t have to be Catholic to be uncomfortable with a friend sharing these intimate details which are the business of nobody except she, her husband and her doctor. You can simply tell her that you, personally, are uncomfortable with having way to much info, and ask if she can accept your assurances that you wish her all the best without feeling a need to share at that level. If she expects others to respect her choices she should have no problem respecting her friends’ preferences.

 

[StevenFrancis]

One of my best friends is in her mid 40s and she and her husband have decided they finally want children after choosing not to have any for the last 12 years. Unable to get pregnant on their own, they have turned to IVF and are using an anonymous egg donor, rather than my friend’s own eggs.

I am 100% opposed to their decision in this process, but my friend is constantly wanting to talk to me about the process - “going on birth control for a month to regulate her cycle before they do the transfer” then “taking my hormone shots…” then “they are doing the transfer today so I have to be on bed rest for three days…” then “we saved a few embryos so we can try again in a few years”…etc, etc…

My friend is NOT Catholic, so she does not have the same opposition to the IVF process that the Catholic church does. However, it makes me very uncomfortable to listen to her talk about it all the time.

If I said something to her about it, I definitely risk losing our friendship, or at the very least, causing an awkward rift between us.

What would you do/say?

I’m not going to be much help on your friendship, I’m afraid. I mysteriously lost all my friendships in my conversion. My family love’s and tolerates me. They are my new friends. It’s far better that you lose a temporal friendship then to stand in front of our Lord after having helped lead someone you love into sin, by your assent. Honesty is the best policy. You must be true to your conscience. You can be loving and discreet, and still let the person know, if pressed, (or even as a gentle offering), that IVF is immoral and against the dignity of the human person. You can offer to pray for her, and for an outcome which would be in accordance with the will of God. You can offer to be a shoulder to cry on if she needs a friend, but you absolutely cannot be supportive, or give the slightest impression of being supportive of the moral content of her decision, while remaining true to yourself, your God, and your Church. I suggest a few rosaries. That tends to help a great deal. Some Holy hours. Good old fashioned love, forgiveness, and a presentation of the moral choice, (adoption).

Best of luck, and my prayers for your friend, and you,

The Peace of the Lord be with you always,

Steven

 

[Catholic1954]

I would tell that she and husband will make excellent parents, but you don’t need to hear the details of the treatment, TMI.

 

[jwashu]

Her religion, I’m assuming she is Protestant, has nothing against the procedure. Some would say that some of those churches are celebrating life however it happens.

My personal opinion is that if they want to do whatever to try and have a family it’s not your place to judge or scold them based upon our beliefs which they do not share.

Now if they were Catholic…

 

[Truly_Beloved]

One of my best friends is in her mid 40s and she and her husband have decided they finally want children after choosing not to have any for the last 12 years.

…]

If I said something to her about it, I definitely risk losing our friendship, or at the very least, causing an awkward rift between us.

If she’s one of your BEST friends, she should totally understand your discomfort.

However, it makes me very uncomfortable to listen to her talk about it all the time.

Then let her know, and I would even let her know why. Virtually none of my friends/family members are Catholic (let alone of the practicing variety), and I often find myself in the position of explaining lots of things to them. It’s hard, sometimes, but when done charitably, most people will respect your deeply held convictions. Good friends, especially, will not want to make you feel uncomfortable when talking with you. If they know that a particular topic is a sensitive one, they’ll most likely avoid it, because they love you.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Did you ever think about how heartbreaking it must be to want children and be told you can’t have them. Have you ever thought how it must feel to her to not only ache for children but to deal with the physical part of this process, let alone the things hormones and raw emotions must be putting her through. And, have you ever considered that you may be the only one she has in her life to talk to about all of this. Just keep those things in mind as well as your moral objection, and I think you will be okay.

 

[BrokenFortress]

If it were me, I’d just say that I wish her blessings on her pregnancy, but I don’t agree with the process they’ve chosen to get pregnant. Then just go from there. Perhaps she’ll want to know why you don’t agree. Because she probably doesn’t know you don’t agree if you’ve never said anything.

My sister is Lutheran and I’m Catholic and the other day we were talking about IVF and sperm banks and she had no idea that I disagreed with it all. So many people are ignorant about the evils of it all.

 

[bellringer06]

I know you said she’s not Catholic, but if you want to give her another option that is (1) in line with Catholic teaching and (2) has better success rates overall than IVF, point her to the Pope Paul VI Institute and NaproTechnology. Here’s a web page to look at.

naprotechnology.com/infertility.htm

 

[KathyA]

Did you ever think about how heartbreaking it must be to want children and be told you can’t have them. Have you ever thought how it must feel to her to not only ache for children but to deal with the physical part of this process, let alone the things hormones and raw emotions must be putting her through. And, have you ever considered that you may be the only one she has in her life to talk to about all of this. Just keep those things in mind as well as your moral objection, and I think you will be okay.

The OP said that her friend and her husband finally decided to try to have children after 12 years of marraige (presumably with making a deliberate decision to prevent children). This is totally different than couples who are open to (and desperately wanting) children who cannot have them. This is the issue with birth control in general…we want to decide when or if we have any children and sometimes go to extreme measures to keep that control that rightly belongs to God. This is what happens when we mess with God’s timing, which is perfect. Who knows, but 10 years ago, if this couple had been open to life, they might have had no problems conceiving.

But, as a friend, what can you say? Are they open to adoption? How about being foster parents? There are lots of options if they want a child. However, it sounds like they have settled on IVF and so I would just say “Sally, I know how desperately you want a baby. I will be praying for God’s will for you and Stan and that you will have peace with whatever happens in this situation.”

Kathy

 

[Lancer]

First, I would pray for her discernment of the natural laws of God…and…I would also make a clear, simple, direct statement that I don’t agree or support her plans or decisions on this issue(s)…not harsh, but simple, clear, unequivocal words…without a lot of “sugar coated” caveats or emotions.

Second, I would have her visit:***Pope Paul VI Institute–The Home of Fertility Care and Na Pro Technology.
***popepaulvi.com/home.html

The Pope Paul VI Institute, founded in 1985 by Thomas W. Hilgers, MD, is internationally recognized for its outstanding achievements in the field of natural fertility regulation and reproductive medicine.
​

• **30 years of scientific research and educational program development **
• **Allied health professional education programs for couples and professionals **
• Professional, caring, and morally acceptable patient services.

Building a Culture of Life in Women’s Health Care

• **Creighton Model FertilityCare System **
• **NaProTECHNOLOGY **
• The Medical & Surgical Practice of NaProTECHNOLOGY (Hilgers, 2004)

                            **Third**, I would give her...***the Vatican's CDF document Dignitas Personae **(the same one Pope Benedict XVI gave President Obama in their first meeting at the Vatican last year).

*CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
INSTRUCTION DIGNITAS PERSONAE
ON CERTAIN BIOETHICAL QUESTIONS

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20081208_dignitas-personae_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...cfaith_doc_20081208_dignitas-personae_en.html

1. Respect for that dignity is owed to every human being because each one carries in an indelible way his own dignity and value. *The origin of human life has its authentic context in marriage and in the family, *where it is generated through an act which expresses the reciprocal love between a man and a woman. Procreation which is truly responsible vis-à-vis the child to be born “must be the fruit of marriage”.[9]

1. The Church moreover holds that it is ethically unacceptable to dissociate procreation from the integrally personal context of the conjugal act:[29] human procreation is a personal act of a husband and wife, which is not capable of substitution. The blithe acceptance of the enormous number of abortions involved in the process of in vitro fertilization vividly illustrates how the replacement of the conjugal act by a technical procedure – in addition to being in contradiction with the respect that is due to procreation as something that cannot be reduced to mere reproduction – leads to a weakening of the respect owed to every human being. Recognition of such respect is, on the other hand, promoted by the intimacy of husband and wife nourished by married love.

Lastly, she deserves to hear the truth …regardless of her cult/faith group…this is really natural law “stuff” and given to each person’s heart by God himself. It is up to you to help her…and up to her to accept the natural law regardless of who articulates it (you or the Catholic Church). If she does otherwise…only God can judge her heart and mind…her culpability. You can continue be her dear friend…but she will always know exactly what you believe and why…and that you loved her enough to speak the truth to her…without judging her or her husband.

Pax Christi

 

[Rence]

Syndey, if you really can’t take what she’s doing, I would just tell her that you are Catholic and that she may not know this, but IVF is against the rules of your Church. Tell her that you can’t wait to meet and love her new baby, but when she shares the specifics of something that’s against your religion that you feel very uncomfortable about it. Make sure she knows you don’t judge her, and that you still love her (the same for the baby), but that you can’t condone what she’s doing.

She may ask you why it’s against the rules of the CC. So be prepared to answer her if she asks. But you know, she may not ever care to ask.

 

[revert_jen]

One of my best friends is in her mid 40s and she and her husband have decided they finally want children after choosing not to have any for the last 12 years. Unable to get pregnant on their own, they have turned to IVF and are using an anonymous egg donor, rather than my friend’s own eggs.

Well, if she is one of your best friends, she should know that you are a faithful Catholic, right? If so, might it not just be enough to say that you are sure they will make good parents, but the method is against the teachings of your Church, so perhaps you shouldn’t discuss that aspect of it?

I am 100% opposed to their decision in this process, but my friend is constantly wanting to talk to me about the process - “going on birth control for a month to regulate her cycle before they do the transfer” then “taking my hormone shots…” then “they are doing the transfer today so I have to be on bed rest for three days…” then “we saved a few embryos so we can try again in a few years”…etc, etc…

I’d also say that you probably should have asked this question and talked to her about it (if you were going to) a couple of months ago. At this point, if the implantation is complete, most of what she will be talking about now is just regular pregnancy stuff, which isn’t that discomfort-making (at least from a moral standpoint, if not from an, um, intestinal standpoint!). You could just mention the moral objection (no point in making an argument of it, as it has already been done) so she knows how you feel about it, and then support her in her pregnancy. Personally, I don’t know how you got through the “we saved a few embryos” conversation without saying anything already. But now that it is done, I don’t see any point in showing her better methods, or sending her lengthy documents about why what can’t be undone was wrong. The time for that was before those poor embryos were created. So I would just tell her very briefly about it, and be prepared to answer the question, “Why didn’t you say anything before?”

–Jen

 

[cmscms]

I was ina position where I could have lost a friendd because she was planning an abortion and she told me straight to my face that if it bothered me she could no longer be my friend. Foolishly I said ‘Catholics don’t judge they stay by their friends and support them’ BIG MISTAKE ON MY PART. After the abortion, she suffered terribly and took it out on me. She was forever telling me ‘Don’t you dare judge abortion’ and if I unwrapped a gum and threw the paper on the street she would judge me by looking down her nose at me and ordering me to pick it up.

I learned that no matter how much a friendship means to you, God’s word is the truth and sinners suffer. I can not be a punching bag because someone else chose their convenience over God’s will.

Respect your friends decision but be true to yourself. You don’t need to be her punching bag. If she is your friend she will respect your boundary and take that conversation elsewhere.

One last thing. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. I strongly suspect this child could have a lot of emotional problems. I am of the firm opinion that children need a tremendous amount of love and that is exaclty why God made the process of creating children to be the greatest act of love imaginable. This child is being created in a sterile medical environment like an experiment. It is starting with a big lack of love. This child needs prayers

CM

 

[sydney28]

Wow, thanks to everyone for all your advice and suggestions.

As one person said, I probably should have had this conversation with my friend much sooner, but truly I couldn’t think of a way to bring it up without it sounding like I was being judgmental.

I’m still not 100% sure of what I am going to do, but I’m glad to have all your ideas

Thank you!

 

[Rence]

I was ina position where I could have lost a friendd because she was planning an abortion and she told me straight to my face that if it bothered me she could no longer be my friend. Foolishly I said ‘Catholics don’t judge they stay by their friends and support them’ BIG MISTAKE ON MY PART. After the abortion, she suffered terribly and took it out on me. She was forever telling me ‘Don’t you dare judge abortion’ and if I unwrapped a gum and threw the paper on the street she would judge me by looking down her nose at me and ordering me to pick it up.

I’m sorry It seems to me that your friend has an accountibility issue and has a problem taking responsibility for her actions. Here you are trying to be kind and respectful, and she kicks you in the teeth over it. What did she want you to do? tie her down and throw her in the basement. She knew full well by your paragraph above that you were against abortion. Our job is to provide people in need with the tools that will enable them to make sounds choices. Your friend is angry with herself because she had the tools and had the knowledge but made the wrong choice and can’t deal with it.

I learned that no matter how much a friendship means to you, God’s word is the truth and sinners suffer. I can not be a punching bag because someone else chose their convenience over God’s will.

I hope you told her that.

Respect your friends decision but be true to yourself. You don’t need to be her punching bag. If she is your friend she will respect your boundary and take that conversation elsewhere.

You can be mindful of someone’s right to make their own choices, without compromising your beliefs, which is what you did. She knew what the teachings were, she knew what she was doing was wrong for her, and she did it anyway. It’s not your fault that while you are a good frient to your friend, that she doesn’t think she should reciprocate.

 

[samovila]

I’m really blessed in that pretty much all my friends are catholic. But if I were in this situation I would probably just mention, “You’re the first friend I know to go through all of this. It’s against my religion so this is the first time I’ve met someone who’s done it.” If that opened up a conversation as to the whys and such, I’d go with it. If it led to conflict or uncomfortable silence from my friend I wouldn’t push it any further.

 

[tweetymom]

Nothing. It really is only your friend and her husbands business what they do. So myob is my advice.

 

[BrokenFortress]

Nothing. It really is only your friend and her husbands business what they do. So myob is my advice.

But see the thing is, her friend is sharing the info with her. The OP is not prying to get the details. It was her friend’s decision to share the details, not the OP’s. So she has all the right to tell her friend she doesn’t agree with it and talking about it makes her uncomfortable.