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ByzCathCantor
Guest
No worries! Again, just asking if you were perhaps seeking a specific point of view …
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SalusaSecondus
Guest
No interpretation necessary. The gospel is the same.
The death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and that we are saved by believing in him.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
First of all if the person is having a heart attack, CPR is not going to help.
CPR can only be administered to a person who has suffered cardiac arrest. This means they must become unconscious, unresponsive, and basically be at death’s door. Not all heart attacks lead to cardiac arrest.
Next, if the person is having a heart attack I am not certain that I nor the person who is having the attack could be sure of this. Most people confuse panic attacks with heart attacks, and a significant number of heart attacks get dismissed by those who have them. Does your scenario mean I have the medical knowledge to know the difference and diagnose others?
And if I can then I can administer treatment for the heart attack, like an aspirin. Most people who suffer heart attacks have been suffering from another form of medical problem and might be carrying medicine that can help. So I would check for that too.
If nothing else I would try to calm the person, make them comfortable and do what I can to help them survive the heart attack. I 'm a Catholic but I’m not stupid. I think God and the other person would appreciate me trying to save their current life over giving them a two- minute “turn or burn” homily. And who says that heart attacks give you two minutes to live? If a person is dying how would I know if the timing for my little sermon was right? It would be sinful for me not to do everything humanly possible to save a literal life. Praying and preaching, while necessary at certain times, are no substitute for caring for the sick. Jesus said we would be judged according to how we cared for the sick, not how well we preached to or prayed for them.–See Matthew 25.31-46.
What’s the meaning of your question?
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rcwitness
Guest
I agree with your objective response. But I think the point of the question (at least on the surface) is what would you do IF you KNEW someone was going to die in a matter of a few short moments AND you were aware that s/he was not a believer (Christian/Catholic).
Maybe I’m assuming too much with that, but it’s how I perceived the question. I know some details of the scenerio were… problematic, as you keenly observed.
Caring for the sick is not limited to mere physical needs OR to mere spiritual needs. It’s doing what we can for both aspects of the wellbeing of another.
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arthra
Guest
“Then all of sudden he is stricken with a heart attack and drops to the ground and has only 2 more minutes to live?
If you do not know CPR, your cellphone is dead and there is no one in area to call for help,”
I would try what I recall of CPR…and pray for him in the process…
As a social worker on call I once visited a child in a hospital who was only kept alive by artificial means…He had been horribly abused, there were nurses present and a coworker… I moved around to where his head was on the gurney and cupped my hands over his head and prayed silently for awhile for his soul.
If you do not know CPR, your cellphone is dead and there is no one in area to call for help,”
I would try what I recall of CPR…and pray for him in the process…
As a social worker on call I once visited a child in a hospital who was only kept alive by artificial means…He had been horribly abused, there were nurses present and a coworker… I moved around to where his head was on the gurney and cupped my hands over his head and prayed silently for awhile for his soul.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
Thanks for you insights and understanding where I am coming from.
These type of questions are more than illogical. I also feel (and I could be wrong) they do little to build up in Christ. They seem to designed to promote disunity and debate. Sacred Scripture states: “Avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they beget strifes.”–2 Timothy 2.23.
These questions are silly. If I knew someone was going to die in a few short moments would also mean I had some extraordinary insight. Even physicians can only make estimates.
People can pray all they want and think it is beneficial to preach to a dying man, but my prayer will be my attempt to save their life, and my witness to Christ my service to bring them back to health. Scripture even says it does no good to preach if one does not physically care for the person, and that many may boast of their faith but fail to have works that back up the claim. (See James 2.14-26.) While I am not saying we shouldn’t preach to people or pray for them, that is not what I would do first in the face of a medical emergency.
Let’s say you are choking in the presence of someone. Would you rather they jump to some conclusion that you are suffering from a heart attack and, because they do not know CPR, begin telling you a two- minute “accept Jesus as your Savior” speech and offer a prayer as you suffocate or would you rather they try the Heimlich? Are you ready to say goodbye to your spouse, your children, your relatives and friends because someone thinks you need to be the subject of their proselytizing more than you need for them to use reason and attempt to help you clear your throat so you can breathe?
I don’t understand what good the original question does, but I also don’t want to judge others who feel it is efficacious. I do, however wonder how close it walks to crossing the line of the principles of 1 Timothy 1.3-4: “Instruct certain people not to…promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith.”
God bless those who would at least pray for and preach to me in such a situation, but I have faith that all of you are far more equipped to assist me in more ways than that should I collapse in your presence.
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spedteacherita
Guest
Hi, ED,
When you asked which interpretation, yours, or someone else’s? What did you mean? Is there not one gospel? Jesus died on the cross for us all for all of our sins - then He rose again, ascended into heaven with the promise to return. Isn’t this the basic message Jesus sent His disciples out with?
Just wondering…
God bless!!
Rita
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JoshuaNY
Guest
I would use the strangers cell phone to call 911.
I apologize if I am being uncharitable. But for those of you who would pray, speak the Gospel and try to get the stranger surrender to Jesus. I truly hope I am not the stranger you meet and am having a heart attack with just you around. I get it, we are all Christians and hope everyone is saved through Christ. But I think your time would be better used trying physically help this person. Pray while you are doing it, but do something.
That being said, you don’t do CPR on somoene who’s heart is still beating. Which is the case with a heart attack victim. You would only start CPR if his/her heart stops.
I would sit them down and try to make them comfortable and breath, and hope help arrived. If I didn’t know CPR and their heart stopped, I would then do what I see people on TV doing and hit them in the chest with a couple of hammer fists and hope I was helping.
I apologize if I am being uncharitable. But for those of you who would pray, speak the Gospel and try to get the stranger surrender to Jesus. I truly hope I am not the stranger you meet and am having a heart attack with just you around. I get it, we are all Christians and hope everyone is saved through Christ. But I think your time would be better used trying physically help this person. Pray while you are doing it, but do something.
That being said, you don’t do CPR on somoene who’s heart is still beating. Which is the case with a heart attack victim. You would only start CPR if his/her heart stops.
I would sit them down and try to make them comfortable and breath, and hope help arrived. If I didn’t know CPR and their heart stopped, I would then do what I see people on TV doing and hit them in the chest with a couple of hammer fists and hope I was helping.
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cmodrmac
Guest
" If he is baptized he IS catholic lol!"
that is not really true right -unless you mean catholic with a small c
as a Physician “I would comfort the dying” per my oath -but the question does make you think about your faith-I would have never thought to ask if he /she was baptized?
perhaps this is not a strange idea at all-if one baptized him what would be the harm?
if he wished it the Baptism would be licit-if not no harm done
that is not really true right -unless you mean catholic with a small c
as a Physician “I would comfort the dying” per my oath -but the question does make you think about your faith-I would have never thought to ask if he /she was baptized?
perhaps this is not a strange idea at all-if one baptized him what would be the harm?
if he wished it the Baptism would be licit-if not no harm done
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Ignatius
Guest
Actually this, and other related scenarios are addressed in the book “The Drama of Salvation” by Jimmy Akin. A more succinct discussion on the subject with exactly that scenario is available as a Catholic Answers podcast on the #6945 from April 24, 2015.
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Ignatius
Guest
Actually this, and other related scenarios are addressed in the book “The Drama of Salvation” by Jimmy Akin. A more succinct discussion on the subject with exactly that scenario is available as a Catholic Answers podcast on the #6945 from April 24, 2015.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
No disrespect toward Jimmy Akin. Spirituality, talent and a true love for God is definitely apparent in that man.
However, in logical apologetics this point is known as non-sequitur because it is “an argument from authority.” Appealing to an expert’s view or opinion doesn’t mean that the opinion or view offered isn’t illogical or faulty. Experts can make mistakes. Facts and truths must be demonstrable and unfailing under examination or discarded if they do fail in apologetics.
This argument or question doesn’t spring from logic because CPR is not a treatment for a heart attack. CPR requires cardiac arrest, which is different. People survive heart attacks, and in many cases people don’t know they’ve had one until they’ve had an EKG.
The scenario would never exist because it requires a situation where not only CPR is a cure for a heart attack (making one’s lack of knowing CPR a factor) but presume two variables (having the ability to know for certain that a person has only two minutes of life left and that you have the ability to do something efficacious in 120 seconds that is better than an attempt to physically save a life). Medically (and scientifically) speaking CPR is not a solution to a heart attack, so the question is scientifically impossible.
This doesn’t mean that people can’t learn from a hypothetical situation, because we all can–not only from our own honest replies but those from others. But a hypothetical situation that is based on situations that cannot happen are illogical to address because regardless of their intent, the premise is impossible.
People have a responsibility toward neighbor to learn basic life-saving techniques, and generally speaking it is a sign of irresponsibility to avoid learning them when it is physically possible for people to learn CPR and other basic procedures. While CPR is not an issue for a living person suffering a heart attack, knowing what else to do in such a situation can be the best use of every minute you have.
An argument from authority is a “logical fallacy,” and nothing makes a person fail at an apologetic discussion quicker than attempting to employ a logical fallacy in their presentation.
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Gorgias
Guest
:doh2:
I got the impression that the advice wasn’t “you must listen to Akin because he’s the expert!!!”… but rather, pointing us to a good resource to seek, since it provided a good analysis. YMMV.
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Ignatius
Guest
Actually, it’s not from authority. But it discuss the subject scenario in considerable detail… There is also a more succinct discussion on the subject with exactly that scenario is available as a Catholic Answers podcast on the #6945 from April 24, 2015.
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Ignatius
Guest
:doh2:
I got the impression that the advice wasn’t “you must listen to Akin because he’s the expert!!!”… but rather, pointing us to a good resource to seek, since it provided a good analysis. YMMV.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
An “argument from authority” does not require the “authority” to be an expert or that an actual debate is occurring. The word “argument” refers to a line of logic presented, and the “authrority” can be any other source that is turned to that gets presented as relevant to the subject being discussed.
In this case while the scenario has been discussed in Catholic Answers before, this doesn’t change the medical fact that knowledge of CPR is not relative to aiding a person with a heart attack.
This is not an attack on the value of either CAF or your assistance. I was merely pointing out that regardless of where this argument gets repeated, who presents it, etc. it still does not change the fact that CPR is never a factor for helping someone until cardiac arrest occurs.
For CPR to ever be an issue, a victim would have to be unresponsive. Preaching the Gospel to an unresponsive person is an illogical subject for the unconscious dying person can no longer be helped with the Good News.
It doesn’t matter who else repeats this question or how detailed an answer they give because it doesn’t change this factor. Besides the question of the OP is at issue and the reasons for their asking it, not Jimmy Akin or Catholic Answers. In logic only the data matters because sources do not change the value of information.
To illustrate: An uneducated child can tell you a truth while an educated scientist tells you a falsehood. Lacking education does not change the value of a truth and education does not guarantee that all utterances of the educated aren’t faulty. The data in each case has to stand on its own. The “authority” can be either the child or the scientist, but one cannot “argue” a point that the data somehow is affected in value due to where it comes from. What is false or invaluable doesn’t become true or valuable just because it gets repeated by a trusted source.
Applying this to the present scenario, it doesn’t matter where this question has been repeated or who presents it. If it stands exactly as the OP presented it, then the question is still illogical to begin with. Calling attention to another source repeating the question doesn’t change anything. If the argument is the validity of the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it doesn’t matter if Richard Dawkins has written extensively about him because the Flying Spaghetti Monster still doesn’t exist no matter how much you write, how often you write about it, and whatever credentials you may or may not have when you do. What is false, illogical or invaluable doesn’t change just because it gets repeated from a different source.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
By the way, I thought of the following text from Scripture from the moment that I heard the question and I should have included it in my last comments.
Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels.
–2 Timothy 2.23.
Again, lest anyone construe from my comments something I did not intend, I was not stating that hypothetical questions cannot be good teaching tools. What I was bringing into question was the value of the question at the start of this thread, whether it could really have value in the light of being based on misinformation.
My intentions were not to offend but to apply the principle from the Scripture stated above. My apologies if people took my comments as an attack on CAF or others who might have used this or a similar question in another setting.
Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels.
–2 Timothy 2.23.
Again, lest anyone construe from my comments something I did not intend, I was not stating that hypothetical questions cannot be good teaching tools. What I was bringing into question was the value of the question at the start of this thread, whether it could really have value in the light of being based on misinformation.
My intentions were not to offend but to apply the principle from the Scripture stated above. My apologies if people took my comments as an attack on CAF or others who might have used this or a similar question in another setting.
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Ignatius
Guest
Or you could just attempt to shutdown the conversation!
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Reuben_J
Guest
Gee. Hard to say. Guess an element of panic would set in initially. I would try to make him comfortable, with words and maybe put him in a position where he is most comfortable . And after that, yes, I would pray, calling the Lord in his name, and ask for miracle and intervention that he may be saved physically from his ailment. Guess that’s all I can do and in this case, totally depending on the Lord for his mercy, love and healing.
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
I would do the same. In addition, I would call 911 and give the person an aspirin (if conscious).
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