What would you like to ask a Catholic?

[Sochi]

Let’s start over.

You seem to be very concerned - possibly even outraged - about the fact that there is a Catholic organization called the “Knights of Columbus”. I gather you feel that Columbus was an individual who was unworthy of such an honor.

Good so far?

Now my question: Why is this subject important to you?

Why is it important to you? Because of my association with KoC and a later discovery, I noticed an inconsistency and asked a question on invitation. As I described, a simple answer would have been very sufficient. But at least three people on here, including the OP of the thread, seem to have gone into freak mode about the inquiry.

So my conclusion is that my question is way more important to you guys as an opportunity to self verify and proselytize than give a simple straight answer. PJM’s credentials* and yours** would point in that direction, as do the denial oriented and ecclesiastically based non sequiturs. From here it would be a far more useful endeavor for either or both of you to look at your missionary motivations revealing them selves as protesting way too much about something than using those in a futile attempt to inveigle me into your version of churchdom. All I asked for was a simple answer. None of you seem to be able to deal with that.

~PJM…having been very active in the Catholic Church as a teacher at many levels, and many years, trained and certified as a Marian Catechist [a Lay Apostolate approved by Rome to teach and defend our Catholic Faith],

**

Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79
I’m a Catholic. You have questions. Let’s get started.

Now reading:
The Fulfillment of All Desire by Ralph Martin (this is a must-read book)

 

[marywarfield]

Why is it important to you? Because of my association with KoC and a later discovery, I noticed an inconsistency and asked a question on invitation. As I described, a simple answer would have been very sufficient. But at least three people on here, including the OP of the thread, seem to have gone into freak mode about the inquiry.

So my conclusion is that my question is way more important to you guys as an opportunity to self verify and proselytize than give a simple straight answer. PJM’s credentials* and yours** would point in that direction, as do the denial oriented and ecclesiastically based non sequiturs. From here it would be a far more useful endeavor for either or both of you to look at your missionary motivations revealing them selves as protesting way too much about something than using those in a futile attempt to inveigle me into your version of churchdom. All I asked for was a simple answer. None of you seem to be able to deal with that.
**

You have been given several answers none of
which satisfied you.
To be in the K of C one must be a Catholic in good
standing. It’s not really an organization for those
undecided.
Very clearly it is a charity organization and people
are more interested in that then Christopher Columbus.
I know I am.

 

[Sochi]

Following Christ example, I’m comfortable allowing folks to make their own choices.

Conversions has never been a part of my “jobi-title”. That’s God’s Territory .

I’m grateful for the kindess of your post.

God Bless you,

Patrick

For my part, I really got a kick out of Jesus whacking the bankers who were making their own choices in the Temple. Now there is an example to follow!

I guess what you mean is you don’t want to pursue this any more. I’m glad to hear that. As I told Randy Carson, a simple “I don’t know” or “That’s not my purview” would have been a perfectly acceptable answer. And why you went off on a scriptural track baffles me. Further, for a person of your seeming studentship, I find it astonishingly naive that you found nothing (!!!) in the library of the internet of a factual nature about Columbus beyond the gloss of his popular public image. I’m again baffled. Nevertheless, I told you I would give you a partial list of my references, here is about 1/3:

1493 Uncovering the New World Columbus Created By Charles C. Mann
(a review of this book on NPR is what got me interested.)

A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies Bartolome de las Casas [eyewitness account]

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/10/14/8-myths-and-atrocities-about-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day-151653

• A People’s History of the United States* Howar Zinn

dailykos.com/story/2007/10/05/394526/-Christopher-Columbus-His-Crimes-Against-Humanity

ux.brookdalecc.edu/fac/history/Tangents/ARTICLESFORTANGENTS/Columbus’s%20Genocide.htm

Lies My Teacher Told Me James W. Loewen,

Columbus: His Enterprise: Exploding the Myth Hans Koning

I’m sorry to say, but my encounter with you, me being new on these pages, has only served to have me tending to conclude that many, or at least some, on here are far more interested in proselytizing and self verification than in a reasonable exchange. Nevertheless, thank you for your time.

 

[Sochi]

You have been given several answers none of
which satisfied you.
To be in the K of C one must be a Catholic in good
standing. It’s not really an organization for those
undecided.
Very clearly it is a charity organization and people
are more interested in that then Christopher Columbus.
I know I am.

Thank you Marywarfield.

I wasn’t satisfied because they weren’t answers to my question, as I noted.

I wasn’t undecided, it was the nature of the induction ceremony that gave me doubt, and rather than be dishonest, I excused myself. And in fact, the person who sponsored me told me that I did not have to be a practicing Catholic to join. Being someone who does volunteer work for the County and other organizations to this day, at that time I was convinced that the KoC would be a wonderful venue for volunteer work. And maybe my sponsor, who is a wonderful man, just had something wrong about the requirements. I don’t fault him.

Of course people are more interested in the good works of the KoC than it’s namesake. But would you name your child, or even your dog, after a serial killer and sex offender? I’m just kind of wondering why an organization that for the most part is clearly doing good, in the light of current knowledge, would continue to have that name. It is just a question. Why are so many so defensive about it? It goes towards protesting too much. As I said, “Gee, that’s a good question, I don’t know,” would have serve well. Instead, there is a remarkable reactivity going on. Why?

 

[marywarfield]

Thank you Marywarfield.

I wasn’t satisfied because they weren’t answers to my question, as I noted.

I wasn’t undecided, it was the nature of the induction ceremony that gave me doubt, and rather than be dishonest, I excused myself. And in fact, the person who sponsored me told me that I did not have to be a practicing Catholic to join. Being someone who does volunteer work for the County and other organizations to this day, at that time I was convinced that the KoC would be a wonderful venue for volunteer work. And maybe my sponsor, who is a wonderful man, just had something wrong about the requirements. I don’t fault him.

Of course people are more interested in the good works of the KoC than it’s namesake. But would you name your child, or even your dog, after a serial killer and sex offender? I’m just kind of wondering why an organization that for the most part is clearly doing good, in the light of current knowledge, would continue to have that name. It is just a question. Why are so many so defensive about it? It goes towards protesting too much. As I said, “Gee, that’s a good question, I don’t know,” would have serve well. Instead, there is a remarkable reactivity going on. Why?

Who is protesting too much? What I see is people who don’t care to argue
about Christopher Columbus and frankly I see no need for K of C to change
name. You are the first person I’ve heard complain about it. Lol.
Have you approached yet the good citizens of Columbus Ohio about
this dastardly situation?

 

[Sochi]

Who is protesting too much? What I see is people who don’t care to argue
about Christopher Columbus and frankly I see no need for K of C to change
name. You are the first person I’ve heard complain about it. Lol.
Have you approached yet the good citizens of Columbus Ohio about
this dastardly situation?

I wasn’t complaining, just noticing and wondering. Never thought of the Ohio connection! That’s funny! I wonder if they are having thoughts about that! Good catch!

 

[marywarfield]

I wasn’t complaining, just noticing and wondering. Never thought of the Ohio connection! That’s funny! I wonder if they are having thoughts about that! Good catch!

Idk about Ohio being receptive to the argument.
Perhaps you could begin with Columbus, Indiana.
Smaller population!

 

[PJM]

=Sochi;11910081]Maybe you could care less about yourself, either, ? Why are so many many on here so paranoid??? Randy, what you are sing is like someone accusing me of assault and battery because I told them they have zipper in need of attention or spinach in their teeth. “ALL of [my time”??? What the you-know-what??? I asked a simple question on invitation, and the rest has been irrelevant escalation or denial on the part of others. A simple “I don’t know” would have been way sufficient, or even “that’s not my purview, why don’t you ask them?” But there were denials and irrelevancies that seemed require responses, at least to keep my position free of some very imaginative embellishments, yours among them. Is *your

faith so weak that you resort to stuff like this to get your jollies and a false sense of verification? Get real, Randy.

I just yesterday received an advertisement from the Marain Catechist Lay Apostolate.

In it was book authored by Father John A. Hardon S.J, the FOUNDER of this group, and a former sometimes mentor of mine. Father was considered to have been one of the foremost Theologians of the 20th Century.

**The booklet is entitles:CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS; The Catholic Discovery of America

I seem to recall that Fr held a degree in Church History; and one would be VERY hard pressed to find a More Tradition Catholic. Father was a Papal Leget for the last 20+ years of his life. Here I quote a bit of the intro:

“Columbus in Divine Providence, was the instrament of extrodinary grace… the destined herald of the true faith to half the human race,”**

For those of us who were BLESSED to have known fater personally, there is no further need to waste time refuting this persons own opinions.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Sochi]

I just yesterday received an advertisement from the Marain Catechist Lay Apostolate.

In it was book authored by Father John A. Hardon S.J, the FOUNDER of this group, and a former sometimes mentor of mine. Father was considered to have been one of the foremost Theologians of the 20th Century.

**The booklet is entitles:CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS; The Catholic Discovery of America

I seem to recall that Fr held a degree in Church History; and one would be VERY hard pressed to find a More Tradition Catholic. Father was a Papal Leget for the last 20+ years of his life. Here I quote a bit of the intro:

“Columbus in Divine Providence, was the instrament of extrodinary grace… the destined herald of the true faith to half the human race,”**

For those of us who were BLESSED to have known fater personally, there is no further need to waste time refuting this persons own opinions.

God Bless you,
Patrick

Are you KIDDING me? PJM, you are a very funny guy! “Traditional Catholic,” for sure, to the point of imitating Eusebius, who admitted about his history of the church that he omitted all those items which would discredit the church and its rulers, and magnified those things that would exalt her. You are kind of driving the nails into the coffin here, as far as your credibility is concerned. Seriously, PJM, speaking as a former strict believer and enthusiastic convert maker, your hyper piety only serves to make you, if not the Church, look exceptionally naive. Ask your confessor, or someone more in tune with things. Heck, ask our wonderful Pope!!!

While extreme piety and your mentor’s theological scholarship may be, in your eyes, of great value in the area of auto verification within the institution of the “old guard” portion of a, perhaps, awakening church, it may not be as useful in the face of original documentation and critique. The Church and the world are more in tune with being comfortable blending the universal values of faith with simple acknowledgements of historic and physical facts, (not “this persons [sic] own opinions”) than you seem to be. That is your loss and the definite disempowerent of your intended effect. I do very much admire your loyalty to your mentor. I am loyal to mine, as well, but am not adverse to having questions about his positions as new information and perspective emerge.

That questioning, or at least openness to the possibility of re-evaluation in respect to larger views, to me, is the only antidote to the horror of an unquestioned blind faith, which results in the arrogance of certitude in the face of contrary information, not to mention an intellectual calcification. And, once again, with great emphasis, my question to you was not an attack on your esteemed church. It was an observation of an inconsistency of labeling, given the good works of a very high profile and representative organization. Why have you taken that so personally to such an astonishing off subject degree? No need to answer that, please. But perhaps a worthy direction of fruitful inquiry for you?

Again, thank you for your time. I hope you found it well spent.

 

[PJM]

=Sochi;11912568]Are you KIDDING me? PJM, you are a very funny guy! “Traditional Catholic,” for sure, to the point of imitating Eusebius, who admitted about his history of the church that he omitted all those items which would discredit the church and its rulers, and magnified those things that would exalt her. You are kind of driving the nails into the coffin here, as far as your credibility is concerned. Seriously, PJM, speaking as a former strict believer and enthusiastic convert maker, your hyper piety only serves to make you, if not the Church, look exceptionally naive. Ask your confessor, or someone more in tune with things. Heck, ask our wonderful Pope!!!

While extreme piety and your mentor’s theological scholarship may be, in your eyes, of great value in the area of auto verification within the institution of the “old guard” portion of a, perhaps, awakening church, it may not be as useful in the face of original documentation and critique. The Church and the world are more in tune with being comfortable blending the universal values of faith with simple acknowledgements of historic and physical facts, (not “this persons [sic] own opinions”) than you seem to be. That is your loss and the definite disempowerent of your intended effect. I do very much admire your loyalty to your mentor. I am loyal to mine, as well, but am not adverse to having questions about his positions as new information and perspective emerge.

That questioning, or at least openness to the possibility of re-evaluation in respect to larger views, to me, is the only antidote to the horror of an unquestioned blind faith, which results in the arrogance of certitude in the face of contrary information, not to mention an intellectual calcification. And, once again, with great emphasis, my question to you was not an attack on your esteemed church. It was an observation of an inconsistency of labeling, given the good works of a very high profile and representative organization. Why have you taken that so personally to such an astonishing off subject degree? No need to answer that, please. But perhaps a worthy direction of fruitful inquiry for you?

Again, thank you for your time. I hope you found it well spent.

Your personal opinion is noted.

Thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Thank you Marywarfield.

I wasn’t satisfied because they weren’t answers to my question, as I noted.

I wasn’t undecided, it was the nature of the induction ceremony that gave me doubt, and rather than be dishonest, I excused myself. And in fact, the person who sponsored me told me that I did not have to be a practicing Catholic to join. Being someone who does volunteer work for the County and other organizations to this day, at that time I was convinced that the KoC would be a wonderful venue for volunteer work. And maybe my sponsor, who is a wonderful man, just had something wrong about the requirements. I don’t fault him.

Of course people are more interested in the good works of the KoC than it’s namesake. But would you name your child, or even your dog, after a serial killer and sex offender? I’m just kind of wondering why an organization that for the most part is clearly doing good, in the light of current knowledge, would continue to have that name. It is just a question. Why are so many so defensive about it? It goes towards protesting too much. As I said, “Gee, that’s a good question, I don’t know,” would have serve well. Instead, there is a remarkable reactivity going on. Why?

Well, we tend to be over protective. You can probably understand it better if you were a practicing Catholic.

I am well aware of Cristobal Colon’s history and will only concede to facts and not rumors or presuppositions, of course.

Personally, I’ve found it to be the most glorified mistake in the history of the world… I mean, a guy who sailed off to find a different route to the India and Asia in general really, got lost and really didn’t discover anything — but in fact was discovered lost by the natives ( can’t help stress this), and then the natives got mistakenly called “Indios” because the “discoverers” thought the land was a part of India… And then no one stopped calling them Indians…

I had a college professor that used to say: “If you are going to err, err boldly and make it sound convincing”, lol.

Ok, rant’s over.

 

[Sochi]

Well, we tend to be over protective. You can probably understand it better if you were a practicing Catholic.

Thanks for your note, Isaiah45.

Was, did, don’t now, except as a pathology common to nearly any religion. My Mormon family and friends feel persecuted, all my Catholic friends the same, never mind my Jewish friends. I don’t know any really fundamentalist christianists, but their paranoia is everywhere and am glad I’m not personally involved.

I am well aware of Cristobal Colon’s history and will only concede to facts and not rumors or presuppositions, of course.

Personally, I’ve found it to be the most glorified mistake in the history of the world… I mean, a guy who sailed off to find a different route to the India and Asia in general really, got lost and really didn’t discover anything — but in fact was discovered lost by the natives ( can’t help stress this), and then the natives got mistakenly called “Indios” because the “discoverers” thought the land was a part of India… And then no one stopped calling them Indians…

I had a college professor that used to say: “If you are going to err, err boldly and make it sound convincing”, lol.

In that case you might enjoy 1493 Uncovering the New World Columbus Created By Charles C. Mann

 

[Isaiah45_9]

In that case you might enjoy 1493 Uncovering the New World Columbus Created By Charles C. Mann

I might pick it up. I enjoyed his 1491 and didn’t know he had a sequel?

Thanks and peace,

 

[Sochi]

I might pick it up. I enjoyed his 1491 and didn’t know he had a sequel?

Thanks and peace,

 

[marywarfield]

Thanks for your note, Isaiah45.

Was, did, don’t now, except as a pathology common to nearly any religion. My Mormon family and friends feel persecuted, all my Catholic friends the same, never mind my Jewish friends. I don’t know any really fundamentalist christianists, but their paranoia is everywhere and am glad I’m not personally involved.

In that case you might enjoy 1493 Uncovering the New World Columbus Created By Charles C. Mann

Well personally none of my folks are in the K of C. Good
thing too cause I’m allergic to chicken feathers. Had
to sit behind a contingent once in full garb and their
hat feathers kept smacking me in the face. Two Benadryl
got me through the Mass.

As far as Columbus goes well…if I get us lost on the
road my husband doesn’t see it as my crowning achievement
in life. Never understood why Columbus was a hero.

 

[Sochi]

Well personally none of my folks are in the K of C. Good
thing too cause I’m allergic to chicken feathers. Had
to sit behind a contingent once in full garb and their
hat feathers kept smacking me in the face. Two Benadryl
got me through the Mass.

Great story! When I was an altar boy, there were some who were irritated by the frankincense. I just loved it, still do; that, palo santa, and copal.

As far as Columbus goes well…if I get us lost on the
road my husband doesn’t see it as my crowning achievement
in life. Never understood why Columbus was a hero.

Me neither, but it made a good story then. In any case, it took a bit of courage to get in one of those “ships” and go into the Atlantic. Ever see one of the replicas? My girlfriend and I used to get lost deliberately, so we could find interesting new things. Almost always worked. Anyway, in your case, at least you made it back!

 

[Sochi]

Note to PJM: there is more love of God and religion in a friendly exchange than in a year of quoting scripture, tenet and dogma, or exhortations to worship and prayer. For my part, where is there not God, or therefore the house of worship, and indeed the holiest of sacraments?

 

[PJM]

For my part, I really got a kick out of Jesus whacking the bankers who were making their own choices in the Temple. Now there is an example to follow!

I guess what you mean is you don’t want to pursue this any more. I’m glad to hear that. As I told Randy Carson, a simple “I don’t know” or “That’s not my purview” would have been a perfectly acceptable answer. And why you went off on a scriptural track baffles me. Further, for a person of your seeming studentship, I find it astonishingly naive that you found nothing (!!!) in the library of the internet of a factual nature about Columbus beyond the gloss of his popular public image. I’m again baffled. Nevertheless, I told you I would give you a partial list of my references, here is about 1/3:

1493 Uncovering the New World Columbus Created By Charles C. Mann
(a review of this book on NPR is what got me interested.)

A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies Bartolome de las Casas [eyewitness account]

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/10/14/8-myths-and-atrocities-about-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day-151653

• A People’s History of the United States* Howar Zinn

dailykos.com/story/2007/10/05/394526/-Christopher-Columbus-His-Crimes-Against-Humanity

ux.brookdalecc.edu/fac/history/Tangents/ARTICLESFORTANGENTS/Columbus’s%20Genocide.htm

Lies My Teacher Told Me James W. Loewen,

Columbus: His Enterprise: Exploding the Myth Hans Koning

I’m sorry to say, but my encounter with you, me being new on these pages, has only served to have me tending to conclude that many, or at least some, on here are far more interested in proselytizing and self verification than in a reasonable exchange. Nevertheless, thank you for your time.

Friend,

As I reacall, I didn’t say I didn’t frind “anything.” But that I was unable to find support of your horrid account.

God Bless you, and for now, good bye.

Patrick