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Brendan
Guest
If you mean ‘return to the practice’, you mean having unordained women assisting with the baptism of women, yes I am fine with that.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Aye that’s the rub.
If we were to have an honest restoration of the office of deaconess, it would not be what certain people want.
We would have women installed into an office to assist adult women at baptism, to hold religious education classes for women-only, to take communion to single women at home (but not to men).
A restored office of deaconess would result in women who undergo a ceremony and receive a title, but who would be essentially no different from other lay women. Indeed, a genuine restoration of deaconess would make prohibit them from doing many of the things lay women do now, such as being EMHCs.
I rather think that the last thing feminists would want is a true and authentic restoration of the office of deaconess!!!
It would be an incredible irony if Pope Francis were to give them exactly what they say they want.
If we were to have an honest restoration of the office of deaconess, it would not be what certain people want.
We would have women installed into an office to assist adult women at baptism, to hold religious education classes for women-only, to take communion to single women at home (but not to men).
A restored office of deaconess would result in women who undergo a ceremony and receive a title, but who would be essentially no different from other lay women. Indeed, a genuine restoration of deaconess would make prohibit them from doing many of the things lay women do now, such as being EMHCs.
I rather think that the last thing feminists would want is a true and authentic restoration of the office of deaconess!!!
It would be an incredible irony if Pope Francis were to give them exactly what they say they want.
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Spyridon
Guest
I would be VERY hesitant to it.
The reason being because of the old addage “give them an inch and they take a mile”.
Make no mistake - the people who loudly call for Deaconesses are doing so because it will open doors to a potential female Priesthood/Bishopric.
If you think the peope pushing for this stuff will be satisfied with female Deacons you are sorely mistaken. They will not stop until there is a Popess. They seek the Priesthood for power and prestige.
I think it’d be a mistake to concede anything to these groups - and that’s what female Deacons would boil down to.
The reason being because of the old addage “give them an inch and they take a mile”.
Make no mistake - the people who loudly call for Deaconesses are doing so because it will open doors to a potential female Priesthood/Bishopric.
If you think the peope pushing for this stuff will be satisfied with female Deacons you are sorely mistaken. They will not stop until there is a Popess. They seek the Priesthood for power and prestige.
I think it’d be a mistake to concede anything to these groups - and that’s what female Deacons would boil down to.
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graciew
Guest
Isn t this an unbiased research by men and women?
Why feminists? Where does that come from,Father?
Why feminists? Where does that come from,Father?
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FrDavid96
Guest
Not sure what you mean.Isn t this an unbiased research by men and women?
Why feminists? Where does that come from,Father?
What is “this” in your first sentence? This new format makes it difficult to tell what someone is asking/saying when responding to an earlier post. Because of the format, I do not know what “this research” means in your question.
As for the second part, what I mean is that feminists who claim that what they want is to “restore” what existed in the past would be very much disappointed if we were to see that come to fruition. A restored office of deaconess would not be female deacons. What they want are female deacons, which is entirely an innovation.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Pope Benedict XVI speaking of Women in the Early Church – spoke of Pheobe – described as a deaconess.
Note – the Pope says at the time – the title had not yet acquired a specific ministerial value of a hierarchical kind.
Pope Benedict XVI
Women in the Early Church
General Audience – 14 Feb. 2007
Note – the Pope says at the time – the title had not yet acquired a specific ministerial value of a hierarchical kind.
Pope Benedict XVI
Women in the Early Church
General Audience – 14 Feb. 2007
The generous contributions by many women as found in the New Testament testifies to the feminine (name removed by moderator)ut in overall Church development
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Today, we have come to the end of our journey among the witnesses of early Christianity mentioned in the New Testament writings. And we use the last step of this first journey to dedicate our attention to the many female figures who played an effective and precious role in spreading the Gospel…
Elsewhere, the Apostle mentions a certain “Phoebe”, described as “a deaconess of the Church at Cenchreae”, the port town east of Corinth (Rom 16:1-2). Although at that time the title had not yet acquired a specific ministerial value of a hierarchical kind, it expresses a true and proper exercise of responsibility on the part of this woman for this Christian community. Paul recommends that she be received cordially and assisted “in whatever she may require”. Then he adds: “for she has been a helper of many and of myself as well”…
In short, without the generous contribution of many women, the history of Christianity would have developed very differently.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/b16ChrstChrch30.HTM
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Spyridon
Guest
It’s not that female Deacons are intrinsically wrong or heterodox.
It’s the fact that the current climate in the West makes it so ordaining female deacons now would be imprudent and redundant at best, disastrous and fomenting schism and heresy at worst.
Again, do not believe for a second the people who are loudly calling for the Church to ordain female Deacons would stop and be satisfied with that. They will not stop until there are female Bishops, female Cardinals, even a female Pope.
We should not make any concessions to these groups, and reinstating a female diaconate would be a massive concession.
It’s the fact that the current climate in the West makes it so ordaining female deacons now would be imprudent and redundant at best, disastrous and fomenting schism and heresy at worst.
Again, do not believe for a second the people who are loudly calling for the Church to ordain female Deacons would stop and be satisfied with that. They will not stop until there are female Bishops, female Cardinals, even a female Pope.
We should not make any concessions to these groups, and reinstating a female diaconate would be a massive concession.
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Walking_Home
Guest
I was not making a case for ordaining women as deaconess. Just posted the audience by Pope Benedict XVI-- and noted the Pope saying that the title of deaconess at the time – didn’t have a specific ministerial value of a hierarchical kind.
In other words – the title deaconess given to Pheobe – cannot be used to try and “justify” that in the early Church women were ordained(Holy Orders).
In other words – the title deaconess given to Pheobe – cannot be used to try and “justify” that in the early Church women were ordained(Holy Orders).
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anikins
Guest
I would not be opposed to it. Women should be more involved in the church. It would be refreshing.
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FrDavid96
Guest
That’s not the case.It’s not that female Deacons are intrinsically wrong or heterodox.
…
It would be intrinsically wrong and it would be heterodox.
The Sacrament of Ordination cannot be validly conferred on a woman.
Therefore, any bishop attempting to ordain a woman as a deacon would be both simulating a sacrament and committing a grave crime against the faith.
It is logically impossible to reinstate a female diaconate because no such thing ever existed.…reinstating a female diaconate…
There were never any female deacons in the Church. There were deaconesses and these were not (absolutely not) female deacons.
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Spyridon
Guest
Are you absolutely sure?
My understanding is this is an open question.
My understanding is this is an open question.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes I am sure.Are you absolutely sure?
My understanding is this is an open question.
No, it is not an open question.
The teaching of the Church is quite clear. See the Catechism #1577 that I’ve posted a number of times already.
The notion that this is an open question is a falsehood. Nowhere, not ever, has the Church said that the question is open or undecided; instead, every single time the issue is raised, the Church reiterates that Ordination can only be conferred on a man.
The reason why some people “think” it is an open question is due in large part to a certain lie (yes, it is nothing more than a lie) that St John Paul II said it was an open question (or undecided, or similar words). That claim is a falsehood. It never happened. The hope (of some) is that if this lie gets repeated enough times, people will begin to think that it’s true.
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Spyridon
Guest
The Eastern Orthodox have woman Deacons and they consider it a major order.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160311134142/http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm
That’s a link to an ordination liturgy for female Deacons.
The Eastern Orthodox are fully Orthodox and fully Catholic, though technically in schism from the Apostolic See.
Considering that plus the Vaticans position thus far, I will contend that it is not proven that ordaining female Deacons is intrinsically evil, and that the Church needs to discern this more and it is an open question.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160311134142/http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm
That’s a link to an ordination liturgy for female Deacons.
The Eastern Orthodox are fully Orthodox and fully Catholic, though technically in schism from the Apostolic See.
Considering that plus the Vaticans position thus far, I will contend that it is not proven that ordaining female Deacons is intrinsically evil, and that the Church needs to discern this more and it is an open question.
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FrDavid96
Guest
No. It is not.The Eastern Orthodox have woman Deacons and they consider it a major order.
Woman Deacon
That’s a link to an ordination liturgy for female Deacons.
It is a link to a ceremony for installing a new deaconess. It does not ordain a female deacon.
The Vatican position is that only a man can be validly ordained. I know that people deny this. Denying it doesn’t make it true. Read the Catechism. Only men can be validly ordained. Period.The Eastern Orthodox are fully Orthodox and fully Catholic, though technically in schism from the Apostolic See.
Considering that plus the Vaticans position thus far, I will contend that it is not proven that ordaining female Deacons is intrinsically evil, and that the Church needs to discern this more and it is an open question.
That page is misrepresenting the office of deaconess.
It is not the same as the office of deacon. The footnotes allude to the fact, but the author attempts to dismiss the differences.
It is not a “female deacon” ceremony—it is a deaconess ceremony. There is a difference.
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Spyridon
Guest
It would appear that way, at least traditionally.
It’s probably best to stay that way.
That raises the next question: could the Church reinstate the non Sacerdotal female Diaconate?
Could, and should the Church have non ordained deaconesses?
It’s probably best to stay that way.
That raises the next question: could the Church reinstate the non Sacerdotal female Diaconate?
Could, and should the Church have non ordained deaconesses?
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edwest211
Guest
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StarMapp
Guest
I can think of no other full time devotional career better for women than one of the married spouse. She directs the social group of a very important Institute that the Church depends on, is the first guide in establishing the moral base for children, and the preparation of the child to the teachings of a life of Faith.
I would say that her absence in the family prior to their maturity is probably a contributing cause of the disintegration of the Catholic family in our times.
I would say that her absence in the family prior to their maturity is probably a contributing cause of the disintegration of the Catholic family in our times.
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misstherese
Guest
And some mothers forget how they’re job is to teach the Catholic faith to their children. Every parent will be held accountable before the Supreme Judge for how they taught their children the faith.
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Walking_Home
Guest
The Church does not define rigid roles for men and women. There are families with a stay at home wife/mother. Families with a stay at home husband/father and the wife works. Families – where both spouses work.
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FrDavid96
Guest
No. No. No.It would appear that way, at least traditionally.
It’s probably best to stay that way.
That raises the next question: could the Church reinstate the non Sacerdotal female Diaconate?
There is no such thing, nor has there ever been such a thing, as a female diaconate ! ! !
No such thing.
It is logically impossible to “restore” something which has never existed.
That is possible, yes.Could, and should the Church have non ordained deaconesses?
However, the problem with that would be the simple fact that there’s no need for such an office. Maybe in non-Western culture there is a need–I think that might be very possible.
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