What's better, looking up stuff on moral theology or following parental orders?

[graceandglory]

And be very careful with temptations of pride where the perfection stuff is concerned or where you’re making judgements, especially if they involve whatever your parents or teachers want you to be doing…

Can I just guess fakename is 17 yrs old?
I have two of them at home. I recognize them.

 

[fakename]

Look we are not talking about such out of the very ordinary moments that one could imagine could take place.

Ordinarily the kid is to simply do task assigned. He is not ordinarily to start trying to evaluate the direction of the parent to wash the car.

(heck in that case the parent may be teaching him a lesson he does not see yet)

Again, perhaps.

But a moral rule should be universal. So it should work in every case where its terms exist, even imaginary ones.

But this rule doesn’t work in all cases, so it can’t be a real rule unless it only applied to only some times or something.

Anyways, thanks for the replies so far. I just need to get a few of my ideas in order and off my chest. Sometimes even I think my logic is a bit unreasonable, and sometimes just plain quesiton begging.

 

[Leegal]

Your responses are probably true. And note: this situation was past and not present so my conversation here is not getting in the way of my duties.

So let me defend my thesis:

the dishes not being done was not harming anyone or lowering our quality of life. So I hardly see the reason behind the order and we shouldn’t do or be upset by what is unreasonable.

Unless of course, there’s something else that I’m not seeing?

C’mon. Your parents wanted them done then. When you are out on your own, you can let the dishes pile up. But if they tell you to do them … there’s no defense that you can give that makes them unreasonable about your doing the dishes when they want them done – they are the parents so they make that decision.

Your defense is unreasonable, not them asking you to do the dishes when they want them done.

In fact the faster you do what they want, the sooner it is that you can do what you want. That’s a win – win.

Your parents I assume support you – and have since birth. You also contribute to these dishes in that you eat off of them. You are obliged to make some contribution toward the household – usually in the form of chores. Even if you have a part-time job, your parents are the main contributors to the household that you enjoy – so it’s not unreasonable for them to ask and expect that the dishes be done when they want.

Show your appreciation and the next time you have to do the dishes, do them to honor your parents by doing them when they want them done.

 

[chevalier]

Again, perhaps.

But a moral rule should be universal. So it should work in every case where its terms exist, even imaginary ones.

But this rule doesn’t work in all cases, so it can’t be a real rule unless it only applied to only some times or something.

Rules come with various priorities and conflict resolution methods. Obedience to human authority doesn’t stop being a rule just because it’s trumped by obedience to God. Those “all cases” you speak about may not be cases in which a higher rule takes precedence.

This is one of the several reasons why you will hear “ordinarily”, “typically”. Nothing wrong with that. A normal person won’t go into a huge all-covering analysis when writing a simple post or having a normal conversation. And even so, there is always something the analysis won’t cover.

Anyways, thanks for the replies so far. I just need to get a few of my ideas in order and off my chest. Sometimes even I think my logic is a bit unreasonable, and sometimes just plain quesiton begging.

No problem, everybody needs that from time to time and it’s a good idea to get a second opinion. Or to question your own logic. First principle of sound science, isn’t it?

One more thing maybe. It’s not like you can’t talk to your parents and try to work out some understanding. They want good for you, which includes not wanting you to be feeling miserable etc. Because they aren’t finding you a trivial chore every 20 minutes when you’d like to spend some time reading, are they? You’d have a problem then. Some dishes isn’t really a problem. And since you might be wondering about e.g. your own personal responsibility for doing the dishes instead of reading on: you don’t do wrong in doing the dishes instead of reading on, when your mum or dad ask you to do the dishes. Don’t have to worry about that. Just saying.

 

[Catholic90]

Yep, be must be a teenager. He’s at an age where the parents know nothing, have silly ideas, and are so backwards in their thinking. Teens, on the other hand, know the best ways to do everything, are logical, and are so wise.

They do grow out of the stage eventually and soon the parents get smarter again…

I’ve been there, done that with mine. I am getting smarter according to my oldest son.

 

[Leegal]

But why?

I mean if I gave an order to my kids: affirm each side of a contradiction, I don’t think that they would be obliged to affirm. That would just be a reductio ad absurdum.

When you have children, you can decide that it’s absurd for them to do the dishes if they don’t want to do them. If you are male, I suspect your future wife will disagree. And you will be doing the dishes then too. So, practice will make perfect and you have a good head start.

I could take this further, but as a parent (eventually) you will come up with all kinds of unexpected arguments from kids, good ones too, and they will be obliged to do as you say or you will have chaos on your hands.

That’s called the law of unintended consequences.

 

[fakename]

1. There’s a difference between “contrary to reason” and “unreasonable”. A lot of small favours parents could ask of you could be defined as unreasonable but definitely not as contrary to reason. Chances are by the time you’re 30 you’ll love doing those unreasonable things for your mother or father. You like will love doing them for your wife and your own children too.
2. Again, parents’ judgement ranks above the kid’s judgement when it comes to thinks like reasonability, expediency, experience-based reasoning etc. Much like with a boss at work. Try arguing about the rational way of flipping burgers.
3. “Sound science” is not something a minor is an expert in, no offence. But I’m sure you understand this. By the way, when I was a kid I knew all sorts of things “better” than the adult world around me. I changed many of those opinions a couple of years later. Sound science is about a decade away.
4. At any rate, simple parental requests don’t have to stand up to some imaginary science/management/economy/sound government analysis by the child. Actually, even if a child would know how to run such an analysis than his parents do (on which I wouldn’t count but which is possible), the same can’t really be said about knowing how to run a house. I’m doing Ph.D., final year. I don’t know how to run a house.
5. Washing a clean car sounds like a fine idea of punishment. Besides, it would have to be shiny spotless clean to make a doubtless case of not benefitting from cleaning (“not needing cleaning” would be a tad too presuming). In which case the parents would need to be either cruel or mentally unstable (if not both), none of which you believe your parents to be, do you.

Let me go item by item:

1. that’s an interesting and important take to it: tell me more about the difference.

2)Common sense enough but I want to analyze this more.

1. Science is known if the major, minor and middle terms are known in a demonstration. That’s only 3 things so I think that it is in the purview of most people including minors (though I’m not a minor, just living with my parents right now). Indeed, pol. sci. was mastered by the founding fathers when they were in their late teens, early twenties, and if minors were not capable of so learning, then it would follow that public school is in vain, which is ridiculous. If older people know a science more then someone who is younger, but yet equally equipped with the axioms of that science, then the difference is a matter of degree not kind.
2. Here’s why I claimed that daily chores or actions of any kind require science to be practiced best and most precisely (not just performed): (again this is subject to dispute) but I used to think that doing something well meant doing it reasonably (in accord with right reason). But the rational is the nature or essence of an object as it subsists as an abstract intellectual concept. So to do something well means to know the nature of a thing. And to know this is to know science. So that’s why we want to know when, where, how to do things when we want to do them -because these questions expose the nature of the thing we are trying to do.
3. Sadistic

 

[Catholic90]

Stop trying to analyze why your parents want you to wash the dishes.

Just wash the dishes. They want a clean kitchen, so help them out.

I assume they pay for Internet access for you–so show your appreciation and wash the dishes when asked. Or you just might find yourself without Internet …and having to wash more than just dishes.

 

[fakename]

Your parents I assume support you – and have since birth. You also contribute to these dishes in that you eat off of them. You are obliged to make some contribution toward the household – usually in the form of chores. Even if you have a part-time job, your parents are the main contributors to the household that you enjoy – so it’s not unreasonable for them to ask and expect that the dishes be done when they want.

Show your appreciation and the next time you have to do the dishes, do them to honor your parents by doing them when they want them done.

Hmm. That might be a pretty good reason too. I remember that I used to think like this myself and then I must’ve forgotten. I think I got carried away with how important religion was that I just forgot about small stuff.

Fascinating how the mind works.

 

[fakename]

When you have children, you can decide that it’s absurd for them to do the dishes if they don’t want to do them. If you are male, I suspect your future wife will disagree. And you will be doing the dishes then too. So, practice will make perfect and you have a good head start.

I could take this further, but as a parent (eventually) you will come up with all kinds of unexpected arguments from kids, good ones too, and they will be obliged to do as you say or you will have chaos on your hands.

That’s called the law of unintended consequences.

This is also a thought-provoking point. Is it just the fallacy of appeal to consequences? I mean the consequences of an action shouldn’t make the argument true or false…

And yet it seems to have some “natural law”-ness about it; that if you don’t follow the rule, consequences that go against you’re nature will occur. Is that what you’re getting at?

 

[bmullins]

Hmm. That might be a pretty good reason too. I remember that I used to think like this myself and then I must’ve forgotten. I think I got carried away with how important religion was that I just forgot about small stuff.

Fascinating how the mind works.

I think that’s a danger that most people can commit. Jesus even warned us of that during his time, when he condemned the Pharisees for not helping their parents because they had already given the money to God. I think this applies to this very situation as well.

[bibledrb]Matthew 15:3-9[/bibledrb]

We have to be careful not to allow our ‘traditions’ to interfere with our duty to God and to our parents. In a way, going and doing what you think would be a better use of your time is the same as donating your ‘time’ to God, when it should be rightly going to your parents at the moment.

 

[Leegal]

Let me go item by item:

1. that’s an interesting and important take to it: tell me more about the difference.

2)Common sense enough but I want to analyze this more.

1. Science is known if the major, minor and middle terms are known in a demonstration. That’s only 3 things so I think that it is in the purview of most people including minors (though I’m not a minor, just living with my parents right now). Indeed, pol. sci. was mastered by the founding fathers when they were in their late teens, early twenties, and if minors were not capable of so learning, then it would follow that public school is in vain, which is ridiculous. If older people know a science more then someone who is younger, but yet equally equipped with the axioms of that science, then the difference is a matter of degree not kind.
2. Here’s why I claimed that daily chores or actions of any kind require science to be practiced best and most precisely (not just performed): (again this is subject to dispute) but I used to think that doing something well meant doing it reasonably (in accord with right reason). But the rational is the nature or essence of an object as it subsists as an abstract intellectual concept. So to do something well means to know the nature of a thing. And to know this is to know science. So that’s why we want to know when, where, how to do things when we want to do them -because these questions expose the nature of the thing we are trying to do.
3. Sadistic

I think you have a career ahead of you as an advocate for the oppressed. :newidea:

 

[Bookcat]

Again, perhaps.

But a moral rule should be universal. So it should work in every case where its terms exist, even imaginary ones.

But this rule doesn’t work in all cases, so it can’t be a real rule unless it only applied to only some times or something.

First off it is not really so much “rules”— such is more for “games” than for morality.

There are various commandments or precepts etc that are all to be taken together.

When one studies the whole one finds it all goes together.

There can be many many tributaries that one can go down…a “forum” is not going to give you what your looking for…

 

[Allegra]

Do your dishes.

 

[fakename]

First off it is not really so much “rules”— such is more for “games” than for morality.

There are various commandments or precepts etc that are all to be taken together.

When one studies the whole one finds it all goes together.

There can be many many tributaries that one can go down…a “forum” is not going to give you what your looking for…

well perhaps I’m just expecting too much from the forums?

In anycase, thanks for the advice y’all it really helps. But this thread is not over, I would esp. like to hear the difference b/t unreasonable and contrary to reason.

 

[fakename]

I think you have a career ahead of you as an advocate for the oppressed. :newidea:

You’re too kind.

But if you’re just joking then:

 

[St_Francis]

Maybe, but I’d say that if a parent said to wash the car and the car was clean already, then the parent is essentially giving an unreasonable order which did not have to be followed.

So an order isn’t just something that has to be followed but only in so far as it is reasonable.
The problem here is determining how reasonable a particular contingent matter is -it is in practice impossible to do w/o sound science and yet science is based on particular experiences…

Fakename,
I am seriously amazed that you haven’t run across the injunction to obey those in authority over you in your studies on moral theology!

No one ever got to Heaven by studying moral theology *unless they put it into practice. *But even poor illiterate people have gotten into Heaven through their willing obedience, sometimes to unreasonable but still moral commands. I have heard it put prompt, cheerful, and well-done obedience.)

Christ Himself said that those who love Him will obey His commands. God lets us know what He wants us to do in part by following the duties of our state of life [cheerfully, promptly, and well!!!] The duties of your state in life, which seems to be son and student, Include obedience to your parents and teachers, and take precedence over your own desire to study even moral theology.

This is the way God lets us know His will for us. If you parents ask you to clean the car and they just ran it through a car wash, well, it’s God’s will for you that you be washing the car–cheerfully, promptly, and well.

And each of struggles with this throughout our lives. I struggle with this every day and I am probably over twice your age My will or God’s??? My will or God’s??? all day long,

A saint who goes into this a lot is St Terese of Liseux–the Little Flower.

You say a prayer for me and I’ll say a prayer for you and let’s see how the day goes. It will probably be a better one, filled with commands we do not want to follow!

 

[St_Francis]

Again, perhaps.

But a moral rule should be universal. So it should work in every case where its terms exist, even imaginary ones.

But this rule doesn’t work in all cases, so it can’t be a real rule unless it only applied to only some times or something.

Anyways, thanks for the replies so far. I just need to get a few of my ideas in order and off my chest. Sometimes even I think my logic is a bit unreasonable, and sometimes just plain quesiton begging.

I replied above not realizing the thread had a couple more pages in it… but that’s ok.

Wrt a rule needing to be universal, sometimes it’s about what the rule really says. This rule says obey the moral commands of those in authority over you. We are never required to do the impossible, so if we are asked to square a circle or something like that, then we are not required to do that, but if we are asked to wash a clear car, we are required to do that–it is not impossible to do that.

 

[Bookcat]

well perhaps I’m just expecting too much from the forums?

In anycase, thanks for the advice y’all it really helps. But this thread is not over, I would esp. like to hear the difference b/t unreasonable and contrary to reason.

What your seeking is a course in moral theology or two…

Look children are to obey their parents (see 4th commandment ).

Now can there be exceptions to such? Sure …such as if the parent tells them to go steal or to murder or do some other sort of sin (such goes against the other commandments of God etc).

A very important example is if the parent tells the Child to renounce Christ …

Or the parent has gone mad and is waiting for the space aliens to arrive and refuses to let the children to call the authorities…or like sort of things.

But ordinarily…the child does not stop and ask if he agrees with the reason the parent asks him to do it…one is to do the dishes.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Just humor your silly parents and do the dishes!



You can chat on FB with your friends about how badly you are oppressed and get a lot of mileage out of it.

If your dignity is truly offended, study law so you can argue for the rights of others and get a lot of money for doing it.

This is a funny thread.



My 18 year old son still argues with me from time to time, but now I win because he can’t drive the car unless he does what I tell him. Ha ha on him!