What's Heaven like?

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I had trouble with where to place this question. I sent a version of it to the Apologetics, but got no response (which is fair enough–it may not have been asked the right way).

The specific nature and experience of Heaven, the thing for the sake of which one is saved, the whole point of everything, doesn’t seem to interest this forum (I’ve searched). I think this is a difficult subject, and I think that’s why it isn’t thought about, much less discussed.

“Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much, much better.” – Laurie Anderson

I think that, as Laurie says, we tend to think of Heaven as being more or less identical to our current lives, except with all the frustration and sadness removed. Very humanist.

But Heaven is perfection. Perfection is changeless. It does not grow. It is not challenged. It does not err. It does not develop, for there is nothing toward which to develop. Nothing can happen there, in the sense of moving from state A to a more desirable or less desirable state B. Heaven is not, in a word, human.

Does Heaven take all this into account and provide difficulties sufficient for human satisfaction in the conquering thereof, like a Westworld type thing?

Or is the experience of Heaven incomprehensible? Is it as beyond human intellect as is the generality of God’s plan?

Also, why was this not a problem in centuries past? Medieval scholars went so far as to make actual maps of Heaven, and people thought about it all the time, focused on it.

Why is this not the case now?

Thanks for any thoughts, including better places to post such topics.

vp
 
Heaven is basically just seeing God face to face. One who looks at God in such a way will not be able to think about anything else.

Heaven is not the great beach resort in the sky- it is meeting one’s Creator and worshipping Him for all eternity.
 
I think heaven will be unimpeded worship. FWIW

God Bless
 
Unimpeded worship and nothing else, as JuanCarlos says? No other thought?
 
This is a question I have been thinking about recently, here are some questions I would love to know the answer to, any help would be really apperciated!

Would we (if lucky enough to get there) still know our family in heaven ?

Would we still live a life and do things? will we go to Church?

What body form would we take? Old age, young adult, teenager, child?

Will it be a big world where everyone lives together or something else?

Thanks,

Tony.
 
I’ve never been, but I’ve heard it compared to Iowa. 🙂
 
Heaven will be like whatever you want it to be and more. Think of the happiest and most enjoyable day you ever had in your life, take away everything negative about it, any anxieties or worries, doubts and you will be close.

I remember my wedding day, or the day my son or daugther was born, and even those days had a few worries or trepidations.

Heaven will be the fullfillment of your lifetime, achiving everything that you ever imagined, being able to meet God, and finding out answers to lifes most intriguing questions. Just being able to have an answer in the affirmative, “Lord did I do I good job, did I live a rightgeous life ?” will bring a tremendous satisfaction and relief.

The mere knowledge that life continues after physical death answers one of lifes biggest concerns. Hell on earth is not knowing for certain whether God or Heaven really exists. The fact that God loves us enough to want us with Him for all eternity makes Heaven complete, no matter what the details of what it entails may be. I seriously doubt anyone has ever been or will ever be disappointed. Of course there is always the alternative if anyone ever is disappointed. 😛
 
Hi Tony,

JuanCarlos and wcknight give you what seem to be the two schools of thought.

One says that your questions don’t apply, because Heaven is not comparable to human experience at all. It’s a timeless, bodiless, actionless, pure and eternal state of worship, with no other thought and no need for it.

The other says that Heaven is more or less whatever each of us wants it to be, like that Laurie Anderson quote in my original post.

The interesting thing to me is that both of these ideas are quite modern, no older than a couple hundred years. Before that, as I gather, it was imagined mostly as an actual place, and one that would appear as the same to everybody.
 
You should read the book “A DIVINE REVELATION OF HEAVEN”

🙂
 
Xochitl_Guzman said:
You should read the book “A DIVINE REVELATION OF HEAVEN”

🙂
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Thanks. One reviewer summarized the book’s view this way: “It is perfection, joyful singing, fun interesting work, and enjoying the presence of the Heavenly Father with power omnipotent.”

Is that a fair summation?
 
I am currently reading it, and it is BEAUTIFUL AND JOYFUL…😃

I recommend it and I also recommend A Divine Revelation of HELL, for those of you having trouble imaging how awful hell is…
 
valueperson said:
I had trouble with where to place this question. I sent a version of it to the Apologetics, but got no response (which is fair enough–it may not have been asked the right way).

The specific nature and experience of Heaven, the thing for the sake of which one is saved, the whole point of everything, doesn’t seem to interest this forum (I’ve searched). I think this is a difficult subject, and I think that’s why it isn’t thought about, much less discussed.

“Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much, much better.” – Laurie Anderson

I think that, as Laurie says, we tend to think of Heaven as being more or less identical to our current lives, except with all the frustration and sadness removed. Very humanist.

But Heaven is perfection. Perfection is changeless. It does not grow. It is not challenged. It does not err. It does not develop, for there is nothing toward which to develop. Nothing can happen there, in the sense of moving from state A to a more desirable or less desirable state B. Heaven is not, in a word, human.

Does Heaven take all this into account and provide difficulties sufficient for human satisfaction in the conquering thereof, like a Westworld type thing?

Or is the experience of Heaven incomprehensible? Is it as beyond human intellect as is the generality of God’s plan?
Click to expand...

God is Incomprehensible - that is one of His “attributes”. So Heaven won’t not be.​

Also, why was this not a problem in centuries past? Medieval scholars went so far as to make actual maps of Heaven, and people thought about it all the time, focused on it.

Why is this not the case now?

Thanks for any thoughts, including better places to post such topics.

vp
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See 1 Corinthians 2.9 🙂​

 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

God is Incomprehensible - that is one of His “attributes”. So Heaven won’t not be.​

See 1 Corinthians 2.9 🙂​

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An excellent citation and point, thank you.

I’d be interested to know if somebody here can cite Scripture that corroborates wcknight’s assertion that “Heaven will be like whatever you want it to be and more.”
 
Heaven will be union with God, we would be restored to what we should be… we would be sinless. We would find joy in worshipping Him. We would see Jesus and Mary and the Angels and Saints. Apart from this, we do not know.
 
Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, what God has ready for those who love Him
 
Heaven-beautiful with a beauty not of earth… there have happiness eternal. :heaven:
I guessed it. But perhaps it is better than my imagination.
at heaven, Shall we see each other?
 
valueperson said:
But Heaven is perfection. Perfection is changeless. It does not grow. It is not challenged. It does not err. It does not develop, for there is nothing toward which to develop. Nothing can happen there, in the sense of moving from state A to a more desirable or less desirable state B. Heaven is not, in a word, human.
Click to expand...
Using the metaphisics of Artistotle and St. Thomas, what you are saying is that there is no potency in heaven. Potency means “potentiality”. “Act” is when potentiality comes about. For example, a young man has the potency (potentiality) to get married or to become a Priest. Once he gets married, or becomes a priest, the potency is then in act.
So, before he is married, he has the potentiality to get married. Then once he gets married, the potency becomes activated: Thus what was merely potency, has become act.

Now, the human intellect also has potency. It has the potency to gain knowledge. For example, you and I were born with the intellectual potency to learn how to read. Once we learned how to read this potency becomes act.

In essense, what you are saying is that since heaven is pefect it means no potency exists (since everything will be perfect, and therefore in act); and since no potency exists, heaven is not human. Now, when you say “heaven is not human”, do you mean it is not possible for a human to experience it? If so, I would ask why? Why can’t human potency become complete act? And if all human potency became pure act, why would this be incompatible with human nature?

Here’s a question: If all human potency has become complete act, does this mean there can be no change (in the form of increase)? Although the answer would seem to be yes, it is actually no. Here’s why…

Since we are not God, our potency is not infinite, which means if we are completely perfect (in a complete state of act), it is still possible for change to take place within us. The change that can take place in us when all our human potency is in act is intellectual change and love. Why? Because man’s potency is not infinite, and greater exists (in God). Therefore, although man’s love, and his intellect, can be naturally perfect (in a state of pure act) it is possible for it to increase since greater exists (in God).

Here’s an example. The intellect of an angel has no potency. It is pure act. This means that all of the angels’s natural intellectual potential is in act. Where as you or I may consider a particular truth and arrive at a deeper level of this truth through contemplation, an angel will know all that it can know about a particular thing at once. Unlike us, an angel does not proceed from one thought to another and so on in order to make progress in understanding. They know all at once because there is no potency in their intellect.

But, although an angel knows all at once, it does not cease to gain additional knowledge. How? How could it be possible for an angelic intellect (which knows all that it is naturally possible for it to know) to gain additional knowledge? After all, as you would say, it is perfect, and perfection precludes any change. While that is true naturally speaking, even though the angelic intellect is in pure act, nevertheless, it can gain additional knowledge. Why? because higher knowledge exists. The pure act of the angelic intellect is the act possible to it by nature. However, this does not preclude a higher angel (which has a greater intellect) from communicating to a lower angel additional knowledge that it could not have known by nature… and this does take place with the angels: The higher angels communicate knowledge to the lower angels.

Now, this is similar to what will happen with man in heaven. Man, who will be in a state of complete perfection in heaven (in a pure state of act), will nevertheless continue to grow in truth through the beatific vision of God. While it is true that man will be perfect in the sense of possessing all knowledge that it is humanly possible to know by his own nature, through the vision of God this knowledge will continue to increase, similar to how the knowledge of the angel increases; and since God is infinite, the intellectual knowldge of man will continue to increase infinitely.

I don’t know if Buddhist experience this, but I know that personally when I finally discover (or figure out) a truth that I have been thinking about, it brings a great increase of intellectual joy. My guess is that this intellectual joy is an extremely slight foretaste of some of the intellectual joy that will come about by the beatific vision when we see God - Who is Truth Itself - “face to face”.
 
Yours_Truly said:
Using the metaphisics of Artistotle and St. Thomas, what you are saying is that there is no potency in heaven. Potency means “potentiality”. “Act” is when potentiality comes about. For example, a young man has the potency (potentiality) to get married or to become a Priest. Once he gets married, or becomes a priest, the potency is then in act.
So, before he is married, he has the potentiality to get married. Then once he gets married, the potency becomes activated: Thus what was merely potency, has become act.

Now, the human intellect also has potency. It has the potency to gain knowledge. For example, you and I were born with the intellectual potency to learn how to read. Once we learned how to read this potency becomes act.

In essense, what you are saying is that since heaven is pefect it means no potency exists (since everything will be perfect, and therefore in act); and since no potency exists, heaven is not human. Now, when you say “heaven is not human”, do you mean it is not possible for a human to experience it? If so, I would ask why? Why can’t human potency become complete act? And if all human potency became pure act, why would this be incompatible with human nature?

Here’s a question: If all human potency has become complete act, does this mean there can be no change (in the form of increase)? Although the answer would seem to be yes, it is actually no. Here’s why…

Since we are not God, our potency is not infinite, which means if we are completely perfect (in a complete state of act), it is still possible for change to take place within us. The change that can take place in us when all our human potency is in act is intellectual change and love. Why? Because man’s potency is not infinite, and greater exists (in God). Therefore, although man’s love, and his intellect, can be naturally perfect (in a state of pure act) it is possible for it to increase since greater exists (in God).

Here’s an example. The intellect of an angel has no potency. It is pure act. This means that all of the angels’s natural intellectual potential is in act. Where as you or I may consider a particular truth and arrive at a deeper level of this truth through contemplation, an angel will know all that it can know about a particular thing at once. Unlike us, an angel does not proceed from one thought to another and so on in order to make progress in understanding. They know all at once because there is no potency in their intellect.

But, although an angel knows all at once, it does not cease to gain additional knowledge. How? How could it be possible for an angelic intellect (which knows all that it is naturally possible for it to know) to gain additional knowledge? After all, as you would say, it is perfect, and perfection precludes any change. While that is true naturally speaking, even though the angelic intellect is in pure act, nevertheless, it can gain additional knowledge. Why? because higher knowledge exists. The pure act of the angelic intellect is the act possible to it by nature. However, this does not preclude a higher angel (which has a greater intellect) from communicating to a lower angel additional knowledge that it could not have known by nature… and this does take place with the angels: The higher angels communicate knowledge to the lower angels.

Now, this is similar to what will happen with man in heaven. Man, who will be in a state of complete perfection in heaven (in a pure state of act), will nevertheless continue to grow in truth through the beatific vision of God. While it is true that man will be perfect in the sense of possessing all knowledge that it is humanly possible to know by his own nature, through the vision of God this knowledge will continue to increase, similar to how the knowledge of the angel increases; and since God is infinite, the intellectual knowldge of man will continue to increase infinitely.

I don’t know if Buddhist experience this, but I know that personally when I finally discover (or figure out) a truth that I have been thinking about, it brings a great increase of intellectual joy. My guess is that this intellectual joy is an extremely slight foretaste of some of the intellectual joy that will come about by the beatific vision when we see God - Who is Truth Itself - “face to face”.
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Very well.
You are all too good.🙂
 
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valueperson:
But Heaven is perfection. Perfection is changeless. It does not grow. It is not challenged. It does not err. It does not develop, for there is nothing toward which to develop. Nothing can happen there, in the sense of moving from state A to a more desirable or less desirable state B. Heaven is not, in a word, human.
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In addition to what I wrote in post #17, I want to address it in another way. This is simply another way to say, or understand, what I wrote in the other post.

You say that perfection, being perfect, is not subject to change. After all, if something is perfect in what way can it change?

This way of thinking is true if we are discussing the perfection of an infinite being, such as God; but not if we are discussing a finite being such as man.

Unlike the absolute perfection of God, the perfection of man is relative. The perfect of man is when all of his potency is in act (as described in the other post); but since man is not infinite, there are limits to his natural potency (potentiality). The perfection of man is when he has reached the full potential for his nature.

“The first distinction regarding perfection in general is that between *absolute perfection *and relative perfection. Absolute perfection is attributed to the being that has the plenatude of perfection to such an extent that it not only has the fullness of being proper to iteslf, but that it also possesses an eminent degree all possible perfections. Such perfection is found only in God, who is for that reason called Pure Act by the philosophers and infinitely perfect by theologians. Relative perfection, as its name indicates, is attributed to finite beings…”

I think you have discerned, based on what your wrote in your original post, that heaven must be more than man merely reaching his potential and not being subject to suffering. And if this is what you are wondering about, you are on the right track. Heaven is much more than merely being a perfect human who is perfectly happy. In fact, it is not about being human at all. Even though humans participate in heaven, heaven is about God and seeing Him - who is ultimate perfect - face to face. This is the Beatific Vision. Through this vision of God, our human potentiality is far exceeded by *the infinite greatness of God which we participate it. *

In heaven, we are raised up to a level above our nature. This actually begins on earth by the possession of, what is known as, sactifying grace, and completed in heaven with the beatific vision. “Sanctifying grace”, which is a participated share in the Divine nature of God, gives to our soul the supernatural capacity necessary to obtain heaven. This already raises man to a level above his own nature. Then, when and if we reach heaven, we will actually see and experience God through the beatific vision, which is what makes heaven, heaven.
 
Yours_Truly said:
Using the metaphisics of Artistotle and St. Thomas, what you are saying is that there is no potency in heaven. Potency means “potentiality”. “Act” is when potentiality comes about.

In essense, what you are saying is that since heaven is pefect it means no potency exists (since everything will be perfect, and therefore in act); and since no potency exists, heaven is not human. Now, when you say “heaven is not human”, do you mean it is not possible for a human to experience it?

I don’t know if Buddhist experience this, but I know that personally when I finally discover (or figure out) a truth that I have been thinking about, it brings a great increase of intellectual joy. My guess is that this intellectual joy is an extremely slight foretaste of some of the intellectual joy that will come about by the beatific vision when we see God - Who is Truth Itself - “face to face”.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your very thoughtful response.

I did not have it in mind to dismiss potentiality in Heaven, but rather to dismiss action. I was thinking that, in a state of perfection, there is nothing for which to act, and it is the absence of action that makes it non-human.

You introduce, with higher and lower angels, the concept of perfection in degrees, which seems to me a contradiction in terms. Or, perhaps you mean that entry into Heaven is a sort of milestone, past which there is infinite further progress (and it would have to be infinite, or you run into the same issue eventually), in which case perfection, as a term, doesn’t really mean anything.

Where does the idea of higher angels teaching lower angels come from?

(Yes, by the way: while central to Buddhism is the inadequacy of words, one aspect of Nirvana can be described as the quintessence of intellectual joy.)
 
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