What's Hurting the Church: Utilitarian Masses

[Jegudiel]

That’s too bad… people are willing to go to 3 hour long movies, or sporting events, or watch James Bond marathons, or whatever, but then they get upset when God asks them for an hour of time for liturgical prayer, for the Mass, the most important of all prayers, and on Sunday, too, which is the Lord’s Day.

We are the ADHD society…

• PAX

So true. Even still, it’s no excuse for utilitarian Masses.

 

[Jegudiel]

A very lovely post that emphasizes the need for us to set our minds on what is good, true, etc.

I think that perhaps** we should not speculate so much about people**, especially priests, and situations that we are not fully informed about. It’s all just our own imaginings, and these could very well be totally off kilter. It would be better for us to spend more time in more wholesome mental pursuits.

Does that include “Cathryn’s” judgement of me in the post you are describing?

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

This is quite the red-herring, Father. Such Masses were an abuse and were irreverent, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Its not a “red-herring” it was the norm for quite a long time. So I’m wondering where this concept has arisen that unless Mass takes X amount of time and is said in a voice manner that is pleasing to a particular individual that its somehow an abuse or irreverent?

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Actually that has caught up with entertainment as well. Only rarely will people go to a movie that’s over 2 hours, sports need to be wrapped up in under 3 hours now, and news segments are even shorter than Mass!

Indeed! We are the ADHD society.

Prayer is not confined to Mass. And its not that people complain about being asked to pray, they complain about sitting through long boring homilies, hymns that go on forever, etc.

But the Mass is the highest form of prayer. I agree that bad homilies are, well, bad, but the answer isn’t to get rid of the homily or make it so quick that it’s meaningless.

Spiritual entertainment is still entertainment. Each person should spend as much time in prayer as is beneficial for him/her.

Like I said, I need to not only eat but also eat well in order to be healthy. However that doesn’t mean I want/need to sit for X amount of time each day/week to do it.

The lives of the saints show us how much time they spent in prayer. We are called to be saints. We should pray like saints. We should, as St. Paul exhorts us, pray without ceasing. The analogy to eating falls apart here. I should not eat without ceasing, but I should definitely pray without ceasing. Prayer, of which the Mass is the highest form, and physical eating are only superficially related.

• PAX

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Still no excuse for a utilitarian Mass. The only reason I mentioned him eating breakfast was to quell those who were sure he was visiting the sick or working on the serving line of a soup kitchen.

Maybe he was having breakfast with someone who was sick and this was their “good part of the day”?

I once had to arrange my schedule so I could have lunch on short notice with a man who wasn’t expected to live more than a few months. Hopefully if someone saw me out to lunch with him they wouldn’t assume I had taken hours out of the rectory for a “fun lunch with friends.”

The point is not that anyone is “sure he was visiting the sick or working on the serving line of a soup kitchen” but rather we’re not sure what he’s doing or why he’s doing it so we avoid assuming motivations.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

But the Mass is the highest form of prayer. I agree that bad homilies are, well, bad, but the answer isn’t to get rid of the homily or make it so quick that it’s meaningless.

If we questioned every one who attends Mass as to what they thought was the proper length of the homily and Mass we’d get as many different answers as people questioned. The quality of a homily, imho, has nothing to do with its length.

The lives of the saints show us how much time they spent in prayer. We are called to be saints. We should pray like saints. We should, as St. Paul exhorts us, pray without ceasing. The analogy to eating falls apart here. I should not eat without ceasing, but I should definitely pray without ceasing. Prayer, of which the Mass is the highest form, and physical eating are only superficially related.

The analogy was between being physically fed and spiritually fed. Secondly, the saints did all sorts of things that are impractical for us today. And it only speaks to prove my point, at what point do we say its ok to end the Mass? 1 hour? Well, some of the saints preached for an hour so if the homily is an hour then Mass must be more than an hour! Why not 2 hours? Well, I read that some ancient Christian liturgies lasted 3 hours, so now 3 hours is the norm. We can go on and on with this forever…

 

[Jegudiel]

Plausible Reasons

This thread has been of benefit to me. Two things were brought up that I have never really considered. I suspect they are very applicable to my parish. I’ll have to spend some time thinking and praying about them.

1.) A lot of Catholics (both clerical and lay) have very low standards/expectations for what they experience at the Mass because they have never experienced it any better elsewhere. I think this might be very true of my parish and my diocese for a number of reasons.

2.) There might well be pressure from parishioners on my pastor to make (actually “continue to make”) Masses as short as possible and to heck with reverence and beauty.

There might be others reasons but for now these two stand out.

More on #1: My diocese has no real cathedral. My parish and another parish are pro-cathedrals used for “big” Masses. I have experienced Masses at both and they were horrible from a liturgical coordination standpoint. Unorganized and utilitarian. I think standards/expectations and especially expertise is simply missing. In other words they don’t know any better. That might well have influenced my pastor.

More on #2: I have heard older folks praise short Masses. One older couple approached me about the Divine Liturgy at a local Eastern church. They said something like “I hear you can get in and out in 30 minutes?” I chuckled and said no, closer to 90 minutes. I also remember a very nice man at Mass complaining bitterly that a certain visiting priest was the celebrant that morning, because he usually preached (preached WELL at that) for 25-30 minutes.

So this thread has bore some fruit for me to ponder. Thanks.

 

[Irishgal49]

I suspect that 80-90% of most practicing Catholics’ main interaction with the Church these days is attending Mass. I believe this interaction is being damaged in many parishes by what I call utilitarian Masses. I don’t mean “liturgical abuses” per se, but Masses with every bit of solemness stripped from its celebration.

I went to the early Sunday Mass as usual. My pastor (we have 2 F/T priests and 2 retired priests) was the celebrant. He literally looked like he was trying to rush the Mass because he had a plane to catch. This is nothing new for him or some of the other priests, but he seems especially anxious to finish Mass last Sunday morning.

We began the Mass within a minute of 07:00 (we are excellent at starting on time at my parish.) Mass was over by 07:41 including a homily and communion under both species for 200+ people. The Mass seemed so dry, so rushed, so utilitarian, so stripped of beauty. He seemed so anxious to finish the Mass that I figured something was up. After Mass I talked to someone for a few minutes in the parking lot and then headed to breakfast at a favorite diner. As I was slowing down to pull into the lot I saw my pastor get out of a car with a few of his friends from the parish. He seemed quite happy.

That really angered me. Is it just my parish or is this going on in other parishes as well? Get them in, punch their ticket and get them out! ** Take care of that Sunday obligation but keep it moving!** To heck with solemnness – the grace is locked in (presuming people continue to attend such Masses, availing themselves to God’s grace.) If I wasn’t so angry I would have actually went in and asked him about the early morning Mass rush. As it was it was best I just keep going. I just looked at the bulletin and he didn’t celebrate his second Mass until 6:00 pm so he wasn’t under a time crunch.

I think this sort of stuff is really taking a toll on parishes as the Mass is many Catholics’ main (or only) interaction with the Church these days. Your thoughts?

I guess I would have made it a joke, “Hi Father, by the speed your buzzing through Mass today I thought you had a plane to catch. I see you just wanted to beat the Protestants to the diner! Way to go!” and laugh. Don’t do it, but it’s fun to think about.

I think that’s truly sad. Our weekday masses are speedy but that’s because people have to be at work. Sunday is beautiful and no one’s in a hurry. I love it.

If that continues to be a problem find another mass. I go to one on Saturday night and one on Sunday morning, that way if one doesn’t speak to me, chances are the other will. What really matters is Jesus and priests (human or robot) should know better than to rush through the greatest gift we’ve ever been given. Shame on him.

Lorrie

 

[Jegudiel]

Maybe he was having breakfast with someone who was sick and this was their “good part of the day”?

You’re honestly suggesting that’s a reason to lop 20-30 minutes off of a Mass?

I once had to arrange my schedule so I could have lunch on short notice with a man who wasn’t expected to live more than a few months. Hopefully if someone saw me out to lunch with him they wouldn’t assume I had taken hours out of the rectory for a “fun lunch with friends.”

Please see above.

The point is not that anyone is “sure he was visiting the sick or working on the serving line of a soup kitchen” but rather we’re not sure what he’s doing or why he’s doing it so we avoid assuming motivations.

Again, 20-30 minutes?

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

The analogy was between being physically fed and spiritually fed.

I suspect the only time we’ll be fully spiritually “satiated” is when we are, God willing, experiencing the Beatific Vision.

Secondly, the saints did all sorts of things that are impractical for us today.

Perhaps we should make it more practical for us? Being a saint should never be impractical.

And it only speaks to prove my point, at what point do we say its ok to end the Mass? 1 hour? Well, some of the saints preached for an hour so if the homily is an hour then Mass must be more than an hour! Why not 2 hours? Well, I read that some ancient Christian liturgies lasted 3 hours, so now 3 hours is the norm. We can go on and on with this forever…

My point is that often rushing things is because of mixed up priorities. We should have priorities straight.

• PAX

 

[Jegudiel]

I guess I would have made it a joke, “Hi Father, by the speed your buzzing through Mass today I thought you had a plane to catch. I see you just wanted to beat the Protestants to the diner! Way to go!” and laugh. Don’t do it, but it’s fun to think about.

I think that’s truly sad. Our weekday masses are speedy but that’s because people have to be at work. Sunday is beautiful and no one’s in a hurry. I love it.

If that continues to be a problem find another mass. I go to one on Saturday night and one on Sunday morning, that way if one doesn’t speak to me, chances are the other will. What really matters is Jesus and priests (human or robot) should know better than to rush through the greatest gift we’ve ever been given. Shame on him.

Lorrie

Thanks for your comments. Your suggestion is tough for me. There are two Latin Rite parishes is my town. The other parish is horrible and has universally been recognized as such for a number of years. They are getting a new pastor this summer so it might improve – I will certainly try it out. The next closest parish is 11 miles to the south. It’s a superior parish (it’s run by Franciscans and they know reverence) but I am bothered by having to drive out of town to attend a decent Mass. I’m also bothered by having to leave my ancestral parish to find a reverent Mass. I do attend a local Byzantine Catholic Parish now and then for a sanity check.

 

[curlycool89]

I am concerned the Mass was celebrated in a utilitarian manner. One of the products was a short Mass. The other was a rushed, bare-bones Mass.

I think you need to go and define what you mean by “utilitarian”. Because I have a feeling you have no idea what it means besides “stuff I don’t like”.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says “utilitarianism is generally held to be the view that the morally right action is the action that produces the most good”, also known as the “greatest people-greatest happiness principle” for short.

So I’m going to play grammar police for once (And I’m an engineer. It’s pretty embarrassing when I have to do it), and say that if you don’t know what a term means, don’t use it. You have not explained (or even attempted to explain) how this Mass was based on the principle of “the morally right action is the action that produces the most good”. Stop using buzzwords just so your posts sound buzzworthy.

The whole issue of time is probably the main reason why the Roman Canon, the oldest Eucharist Prayer, is rarely used. This is unfortunate.

I’ve been to daily Masses where the Roman Canon was used, and the Mass ended up being the exact same length (well within the average of what I had seen), so there is little evidence that the choice of EP changes anything with respect to time.

Nope, sorry. I have never experienced a non-rushed 45 minute Mass with a homily, at least minimal music and communion under both kinds for 200 or so communicants. Simply impossible to be done in 45 minutes without obviously rushing through it.

Well, I guess I don’t exist then. Our college celebrated Sunday Mass in 50 minutes most Sundays, and the only reason it was that long at all was because we always get long, thoughtful homilies (that’s what happens when the priests are professors). I would describe the music as being on the long side, usually including a post-communion silence or music-meditation of a few minutes. But, it’s only a chapel, so we didn’t have the number of communicants you might see at a normal parish (but it would probably be >100).

No matter how it’s defined, reverence is never a rushed, stripped-down Mass when it doesn’t have to be.

What do you mean by “stripped-down”? Did the priest omit something? Was something in the Order of Mass skipped?

 

[Jegudiel]

I worry about the effects of these utilitarian Masses because I think they ultimately drive people away from the Church. People begin to wonder “what’s the big deal?” when the Mass is celebrated in such a utilitarian manner, devoid of as much reverence and grace as possible. Coupled with horrible or non-existent catechesis they just fade away.

 

[Cristiano]

I think that people could invest some time reading the book "A Short History of the Western Liturgy ’ by Theodor Klauser, and also the book “The Byzantine Rite: A Short History” by Robert F. Taft. Such books would give them a better insight on the development of the liturgy and it would also make them re-think about the concept of solemnity and timing of the liturgy. I do not advocate going to the “dinner table” model that some people in the charismatic fold would like to use, but I think that some historical reality checking would help to correct some assumptions that appear to be based on feelings or misinformation.

 

[Jegudiel]

I think you need to go and define what you mean by “utilitarian”. Because I have a feeling you have no idea what it means besides “stuff I don’t like”.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says “utilitarianism is generally held to be the view that the morally right action is the action that produces the most good”, also known as the “greatest people-greatest happiness principle” for short.

So I’m going to play grammar police for once (And I’m an engineer. It’s pretty embarrassing when I have to do it), and say that if you don’t know what a term means, don’t use it. You have not explained (or even attempted to explain) how this Mass was based on the principle of “the morally right action is the action that produces the most good”. Stop using buzzwords just so your posts sound buzzworthy.

I’ve been to daily Masses where the Roman Canon was used, and the Mass ended up being the exact same length (well within the average of what I had seen), so there is little evidence that the choice of EP changes anything with respect to time.

Well, I guess I don’t exist then. Our college celebrated Sunday Mass in 50 minutes most Sundays, and the only reason it was that long at all was because we always get long, thoughtful homilies (that’s what happens when the priests are professors). I would describe the music as being on the long side, usually including a post-communion silence or music-meditation of a few minutes. But, it’s only a chapel, so we didn’t have the number of communicants you might see at a normal parish (but it would probably be >100).

What do you mean by “stripped-down”? Did the priest omit something? Was something in the Order of Mass skipped?

u·til·i·tar·i·an   [yoo-til-i-tair-ee-uhn]

adjective

1. pertaining to or consisting in utility.
   2. having regard to utility or usefulness rather than beauty, ornamentation, etc.
2. of, pertaining to, or adhering to the doctrine of utilitarianism.

Rf. dictionary.reference.com/browse/utilitarian?s=t

 

[ProVobis]

I can understand it, too, but the answer seems to be better catechesis. The faithful needs to be instructed why the Mass is so important and why it should be high in their priorities. They need to understand why they should stay for the entire Mass. But when Mass is pared down to conform to them, we are simply confirming them.

We should raise ourselves up to the ideals of the Church, not lower the ideals of the Church to us.

• PAX

There’s no doubt more catechesis is in order. It probably comes down to how much spirituality you require. I listened to a Spanish homily this past weekend and I know much more Latin than I do Spanish. But I could tell from his tone and when he spoke to children at certain points pretty much what he was sermonizing. The whole Mass lasted well over an hour, in spite of the fact that less than 50% received there. It filled my spiritual needs and I learned a few Spanish words besides.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

You’re honestly suggesting that’s a reason to lop 20-30 minutes off of a Mass?

Once again, I doubt “fast talking” cuts 20-30 minutes off of Mass. And secondly, that was not my point, I was merely pointing out that we don’t known what a priest is doing or why, so to assume he’s just “at breakfast with friends” is not a safe assumption.

 

[cominghomeCC]

My parish has the opposite problem–Saturday Vigil and Sunday Masses typically last 65 to 75 minutes. Three years ago, our new pastor increased the time. In the past, these Masses were 40 to 45 minutes. We’ve had quite the exodus from our parish to surrounding parishes.

I don’t want to give the impression, length of Mass was the main complaint responsible for the exodus. There were other complaints, however, length of Mass is in the top 5.

Depending on the celebrant, and if we have a seminarian with him, our Sunday Mass ranges between 75 and 90 minutes. During Lent and Advent we have about 1000 people at most Masses, regular time about 600 Easter Vigil was closer to 1600 and was 3.5 hours this year as it was last year. We’re very grateful to have one of them that sings beautifully to celebrate Easter Vigil with. And our Week day masses have about 75 people if that and vary between 40 minutes to 60, again, depending on the celebrant. Fr. M does marvelous homilies, with lots of food for thought, but he tends to be longer winded. I love when he is the celebrant! I’m game for the extra 10 to 20 minutes with him, as I always go home with lots of inspiration.

 

[Jegudiel]

Its not a “red-herring” it was the norm for quite a long time. So I’m wondering where this concept has arisen that unless Mass takes X amount of time and is said in a voice manner that is pleasing to a particular individual that its somehow an abuse or irreverent?

Who suggested such a “concept” other than yourself? Last Sunday’s Mass was so obviously rushed that I looked at my watch. I was walking out the door of the church at 07:41. That sort of stunned me.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Who suggested such a “concept” other than yourself? Last Sunday’s Mass was so obviously rushed that I looked at my watch. I was walking out the door of the church at 07:41. That sort of stunned me.

Once again, where does this concept come from that Mass must take X amount of time or be said with a certain voice to be reverent?