What's In Our Name?

[Protestant101]

All churches have a name…something that people call them by…For eg., I am a Seventh-day Adventist. And whatever our name is; the name means something.

I am starting this topic because several times in the past, I have been “arrested” by Catholic forum members for using the name “Roman Catholic.” Some of you have hotly denied/contested use of this name.

Let me quote something I read recently to explain one of several reasons why people would use this name for your church:

Roman Catholicism is the entirety of the beliefs and practices of the Western and Eastern churches which are in full communion with the Pope of Rome as the claimed successor of St. Peter the Apostle, united together as the Catholic Church. The term Roman Catholic was defined by the Roman Emperor Theodosius on February 27 AD 380 in the Theodosian Code XVI.i.2: “It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation, should continue the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one Deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Roman Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of divine condemnation and the second the punishment of our authority, in accordance with the will of heaven shall decide to inflict.”
[Extract of English translation from Henry Bettenson, ed., Documents of the Christian Church (London: Oxford University Press, 1943), p. 31, cited at Medieval Sourcebook: Theodosian Code XVI by Paul Halsall, Fordham University. Retrieved Jan 5, 2007. The full Latin text of the code is at IMPERATORIS THEODOSIANI CODEX Liber Decimus Sextus (170KB download), archived from George Mason University. trieved Jan 5, 2007.]

You can find this quote at Catholic Portal Apparently; this also shows a historical context for why the present Pope has said that Protestants do not have real Churches. They are not a true “Church.”

So the point of this topic is to discuss 1) Why is it wrong to call you Roman Catholic? 2) Why is it wrong for other groups to call themselves a Church?

The names we use do mean something. What we call ourselves means something. I will be interested in any and all replies.

 

[Catholic1954]

There is no such thing as “The Roman Catholic Church”. It is The CATHOLIC CHURCH only. “Roman” comes from the rite, or expression of Catholicism that we practice within the CATHOLIC Church. There are many other, less known, rites of the Catholic Church, such as The Maronite Rite, The Byzantine Rite, The Chaldean Rite, etc… Most Catholics are of The Roman (or Latin) Rite. The Catholic Church alone was started by Jesus Christ himself, while he was here amoung us; it alone has the fullness of truth. Other denominations can (and do) have some truth, but not the whole truth and nothing but the truth, only the true Church of Jesus can have it.

 

[Publisher]

In the gospels Jesus said “Up until now I have called you servant, but now I call you friends” “You are my friends if you do as I have commanded you.”

I believe in one of the Johanine letters the writer says to “Greet all the friends.”

Abraham was called the “Friend of God”.

Friends are not a separate “church”…we are members of the Church…and we use the term “Meeting” to designate our congregations since the Church meets for worship.

“Quaker” was originally used as a term of derision as those first Seekers in the 17th century called for others to “quake in the fear of God”…the name stuck…and was embraced as a badge of honor. These Friends of God organized into a Society of like minded individuals who had experienced the Presence of God in their lives experientially and rediscovered that each believer shares in the priesthood of Christ. Each of us is minister and priest…each of us may approach God directly through Christ without need of a human mediator to perform any rites or rituals on our behalf.

Friends, like the Orthodox, cannot say where the Church is not…but we know where the Church meets…each First Day we gather to experience the Real Presence of Christ the Light in our midst and commune with Him…He is present among us…spiritually as he said where two or three are gathered in His name, there he is, in our midst…and truly Present in each face we look into…to see the Face of Christ…“if you have done it to the least of these…you have done it to me.”

The names which we call ourselves do mean something…I am a Friend.

 

[IHeartAquinas]

The “Roman” designation is for the specific Rite used by the diocese in question. A Catholic who uses the Byzantine Rite is most definitely NOT a Roman Catholic. A more appropriate term than “Roman Catholic” that would contain the full meaning without the confusion would be Roman Rite Catholic. It implies that all who worship using the Roman Rite are Catholic, but not all Catholics utilize the Roman Rite.

As for the distinction between “Church” and “Community,” it rests in the fact that the Catholic Church recognizes a “true” Church as having the authority of Apostolic Succession. Any group that cannot claim this authority is not a “Church” and is instead a “Community.” All members of these “Communities” have a possibility of salvation, because they have a portion of Truth, but only the Catholic Church holds the fullness of Truth.

However, it should be understood that not all groups calling themselves “Christian” are considered “Communities” either. For instance:

Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Trinity. For the Catholic Church, these groups are not even Christian and their chance of salvation is slim to nill. We had a discussion a while ago about Mormons going to heaven and I think we generally agreed that most well-intentioned Mormons have a better chance at salvation than the Mormon leadership, but I can’t remember.

But that’s the distinction on both points. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Churches, Lutheranism, and Methodism are Communities, Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not even Christian.

Hope it helps.

 

[Brywan]

The names which we call ourselves do mean something

This reminds me of of a conversation I had many years ago with a man who was a convert to Catholicism. I was a Protestant at the time. He asked me, “Doesn’t it bother you that the group you are a part of has as its root, the word protest?” I had never given it any thought until that moment…but in light of John 17, I had to admit, he made a valid point…

Words DO mean something…I’ll take “universal” over “protest” any day of the day or week…after all, doesn’t the scripture teach that there will be people from every tribe, every nation, every tongue, etc etc…a “universal” church? Haven’t found the verse yet to support that the church will be a “protesting” assembly…

Words DO mean something.

 

[Publisher]

This reminds me of of a conversation I had many years ago with a man who was a convert to Catholicism. I was a Protestant at the time. He asked me, “Doesn’t it bother you that the group you are a part of has as its root, the word protest?” I had never given it any thought until that moment…but in light of John 17, I had to admit, he made a valid point…

Words DO mean something…I’ll take “universal” over “protest” any day of the day or week…after all, doesn’t the scripture teach that there will be people from every tribe, every nation, every tongue, etc etc…a “universal” church? Haven’t found the verse yet to support that the church will be a “protesting” assembly…

Words DO mean something.

Except the term “Protestant” doesn’t mean to “protest”…the word originally meant to “witness to”…not “protest against.” “Pro-testify”

So how do you feel about “witness to”?

 

[Protestant101]

So how do you feel about “witness to”?

1 John 1:1-3

 

[Protestant101]

There is no such thing as “The Roman Catholic Church”.

But why do I keep reading otherwise - and from noted Catholic theologians/leaders? Did you read the quote I gave in the OP?

Roman Catholicism is the entirety of the beliefs and practices of the Western and Eastern churches which are in full communion with the Pope of Rome as the claimed successor of St. Peter the Apostle, united together as the Catholic Church. The term Roman Catholic was defined by the Roman Emperor Theodosius on February 27 AD 380 in the Theodosian Code XVI.i.2: "It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation, should continue the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one Deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Roman Catholic Christians;

Now, IF the Roman Catholic Church “never changes” then why this change? Why do you say there is no such thing?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Except the term “Protestant” doesn’t mean to “protest”…the word originally meant to “witness to”…not “protest against.” “Pro-testify”

So how do you feel about “witness to”?

Of course the word “protest” doesn’t have the meaning now which you ascribe to it, if it ever really did. Shakespeare certainly used the word “protest” the same way we do, and he was roughly contemporary with the beginning of protestantism. But nevertheless, nobody in the English speaking world now uses the term “protest” to mean “witness”. Yet, protestants keep using the term. “Protestant” presently means “I believe in the salvific nature of Jesus Christ. Yet, I do not accept everything the Catholic Church teaches about it. In order to know precisely how I differ, you must inquire.”

 

[Ridgerunner]

So the point of this topic is to discuss 1) Why is it wrong to call you Roman Catholic? 2) Why is it wrong for other groups to call themselves a Church?

The names we use do mean something. What we call ourselves means something. I will be interested in any and all replies.

The Catholic Church does not consider itself bound by what some emperor decreed, regardless of what he meant in his declaration.

Generally speaking, it is considered ill-mannered to insist on calling a person or an organization or a church by a name other than that which it applies to itself. You would surely take offense if I insisted on calling your church the “Seventh Day Go to Meetin’” church or some such thing. You just would, and you would be right in doing it.

So, whatever is your real point in coming into a Catholic site and insisting on your naming the Catholic Church something other than what its name really is, perhaps you would do better to simply study the Church’s own statements about it, and refrain from confronting Catholics about it. I’m sure you will find plenty of sources.

As far as I am concerned, protestant churches can call themselves anything they want to call themselves, as long as it isn’t deceptive. It would be wrong, for example, for them to call themselves “banks”. It would be wrong as well to call themselves the Catholic Church.

 

[Publisher]

Of course the word “protest” doesn’t have the meaning now which you ascribe to it, if it ever really did. Shakespeare certainly used the word “protest” the same way we do, and he was roughly contemporary with the beginning of protestantism. But nevertheless, nobody in the English speaking world now uses the term “protest” to mean “witness”. Yet, protestants keep using the term. “Protestant” presently means “I believe in the salvific nature of Jesus Christ. Yet, I do not accept everything the Catholic Church teaches about it. In order to know precisely how I differ, you must inquire.”

No, of course TODAY the word “protest” doesn’t carry the same meaning any longer as “witness”…“pro-testify”…but it is the origin of the designation “Protestant” which was given in a Gemanic political setting, if I remember correctly.

The name “Protestant” doesn’t phase me in the least…I have never “protested against” tha Catholic church…I have no need to…but I have “witnessed to” a new life in Christ…in that sense…I am a Protestant.

 

[Publisher]

The Catholic Church does not consider itself bound by what some emperor decreed, regardless of what he meant in his declaration.

Generally speaking, it is considered ill-mannered to insist on calling a person or an organization or a church by a name other than that which it applies to itself. You would surely take offense if I insisted on calling your church the “Seventh Day Go to Meetin’” church or some such thing. You just would, and you would be right in doing it.

So, whatever is your real point in coming into a Catholic site and insisting on your naming the Catholic Church something other than what its name really is, perhaps you would do better to simply study the Church’s own statements about it, and refrain from confronting Catholics about it. I’m sure you will find plenty of sources.

As far as I am concerned, protestant churches can call themselves anything they want to call themselves, as long as it isn’t deceptive. It would be wrong, for example, for them to call themselves “banks”. It would be wrong as well to call themselves the Catholic Church.

So, would you allow Protestants the same right to define “Protestant” as they see it and not what modern Catholics say “protestant” mean? Just curious.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

All churches have a name…something that people call them by…For eg., I am a Seventh-day Adventist. And whatever our name is; the name means something.

I am starting this topic because several times in the past, I have been “arrested” by Catholic forum members for using the name “Roman Catholic.” Some of you have hotly denied/contested use of this name.

Let me quote something I read recently to explain one of several reasons why people would use this name for your church:
You can find this quote at Catholic Portal Apparently; this also shows a historical context for why the present Pope has said that Protestants do not have real Churches. They are not a true “Church.”

So the point of this topic is to discuss 1) Why is it wrong to call you Roman Catholic? 2) Why is it wrong for other groups to call themselves a Church?

The names we use do mean something. What we call ourselves means something. I will be interested in any and all replies.

I don’t have a problem with the term per se but what is your purpose for using the term? Depending on the answer a problem could arise.

God bless

 

[Protestant101]

The Catholic Church does not consider itself bound by what some emperor decreed, regardless of what he meant in his declaration.

Generally speaking, it is considered ill-mannered to insist on calling a person or an organization or a church by a name other than that which it applies to itself. You would surely take offense if I insisted on calling your church the “Seventh Day Go to Meetin’” church or some such thing. You just would, and you would be right in doing it.

So, whatever is your real point in coming into a Catholic site and insisting on your naming the Catholic Church something other than what its name really is, perhaps you would do better to simply study the Church’s own statements about it, and refrain from confronting Catholics about it. I’m sure you will find plenty of sources.

As far as I am concerned, protestant churches can call themselves anything they want to call themselves, as long as it isn’t deceptive. It would be wrong, for example, for them to call themselves “banks”. It would be wrong as well to call themselves the Catholic Church.

In other words don’t ask questions? Hmmm Well I guess you had better join a different forum. I thought that’s what this place was for?

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Publisher
…I have never “protested against” tha Catholic church.

You are effectively protesting the Catholic Church by not practicing the faith as handed to us by Jesus Christ.
Your definiton of the word protestant is quite convenient but is incorrect. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines the word protestant as: a christian not of a Catholic or Orthodox church. Look it up. Not a word about “testify” or whatever convoluted definition you are giving it.
BTW, are you aware that jehovah’s witnesses self identify as “publishers”. That does not make them the definition of publisher as defined by Merriam-Webster’s either.

 

[Brywan]

Except the term “Protestant” doesn’t mean to “protest”…the word originally meant to “witness to”…not “protest against.” “Pro-testify”

So how do you feel about “witness to”?

Yes, I like “witness to” as well as “universal”—but I don’t think you will find too many people TODAY outside of academia who would give a definition of “protest” as “witness to.” Look the word up in a modern dictionary and the first definition will be centered around the idea of “objection.” This is why many Christians in today’s world bristle against being called “Protestants” because they “protest” that they aren’t really “protesting” anything anymore… Words DO have meaning, and so it’s important to understand how a word affects the consciousness of an individual TODAY–not 600 years ago in the original Latin–would you agree that the language we use is living and fluid and takes on nuances with time which the original etymology does not contain?

 

[mark_a]

So the point of this topic is to discuss 1) Why is it wrong to call you Roman Catholic? 2) Why is it wrong for other groups to call themselves a Church?

The names we use do mean something. What we call ourselves means something. I will be interested in any and all replies.

I belong to the Roman Rite. So Roman Catholic is ok w/ me.

Lots of Protestants consider it and use it as an insult, though. They have had so much of their pastors’ ignorance pounded into them, that they think Roman and Catholic are interchangable.

All Roman Rite are Catholic, not all Catholics are Roman Rite.

I’m glad you asked.

 

[Protestant101]

You are effectively protesting the Catholic Church by not practicing the faith as handed to us by Jesus Christ.
Your definiton of the word protestant is quite convenient but is incorrect. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines the word protestant as: a christian not of a Catholic or Orthodox church. Look it up. Not a word about “testify” or whatever convoluted definition you are giving it.

The only trouble with your proposals here is that JESUS WAS A PROTESTANT; JESUS IS A PROTESTANT; AND JESUS WILL ALWAYS BE A PROTESTANT.

 

[Third_Day]

It is incorrect to call Pope Benedict XVI the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, he is the Pope of the Catholic Church which includes many rites.
I am a Catholic of the Roman or Latin Rite not a Catholic of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Protestant101]

It is incorrect to call Pope Benedict XVI the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, he is the Pope of the Catholic Church which includes many rites.
I am a Catholic of the Roman or Latin Rite not a Catholic of the Roman Catholic Church.

Well; Roman Catholic is not usually used in the geographic sense; but rather in the authoritative sense; as in the authority of the Pope (who lives in Rome) over all other Catholics. The only possible reason I can think of that Catholics don’t like to be called Roman Catholics; which, in effect, they are, is because they see the geographic context, apart from the situational/authoritative context; and this would make it look like they have denominations. If we were to just say that because you don’t live in Rome physically, then you are not Roman Catholic; the authority of the Pope over all Catholics is obscured for fear of being seen as having denominations.