What's it like being Catholic in the South?

[90Domer]

I think in the Northeast, there are dioceses that are liberal to the point of nearly being non-Catholic. I would never want to live in the diocese of Albany or Rochester, NY. However, one bishop has retired and another is about to, and I have full confidence that the Holy Father will appoint good and faithful bishops.

In rural NC, I felt isolated in my faith. Also, the people were not very genuine. They may have been conservative in their thoughts on some topics, but they were also prejudiced. “Black people went to black churches, and white people went to while churches,” as I was told and quickly learned. I was told I wasn’t a Christian, I had not been saved, and a slew of other nasty cracks. And since these people made the decisions in my workplace, I was never able to break the “old boy network” no matter how hard I worked.

In the NE, people may be more cautious, less friendly, but they are also more genuine. This is simply one person’s experience. Well, two if you count my husband.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think in the Northeast, there are dioceses that are liberal to the point of nearly being non-Catholic. I would never want to live in the diocese of Albany or Rochester, NY. However, one bishop has retired and another is about to, and I have full confidence that the Holy Father will appoint good and faithful bishops.

In rural NC, I felt isolated in my faith. Also, the people were not very genuine. They may have been conservative in their thoughts on some topics, but they were also prejudiced. “Black people went to black churches, and white people went to while churches,” as I was told and quickly learned. I was told I wasn’t a Christian, I had not been saved, and a slew of other nasty cracks. And since these people made the decisions in my workplace, I was never able to break the “old boy network” no matter how hard I worked.

In the NE, people may be more cautious, less friendly, but they are also more genuine. This is simply one person’s experience. Well, two if you count my husband.

I’m not terribly surprised that a person might feel “on the outside” coming from the North into rural NC. (I’m imagining rural NC to be somewhat like the Ozarks where I live). Acceptance comes slowly, and particularly to northerners, but some of that isn’t “real” either. Some of it is testing a person out, and being thin-skinned about it is definitely a negative. Southerners are a bit paranoid about northerners. They believe northerners think they’re hicks and, in large part, they’re not really wrong. That’s the Ozarks. Might be different in NC, of course.

The race thing is surely different, because there have never been a significant number of blacks here, and aren’t now. I take it that it’s different where you are. But I will say that while I would not be entirely comfortable as a black person in the Ozarks because of the relative lack of other blacks, I would not be likely to run into much in the way of racism. A black person here can still “be black”, but not in the way a black person in a northern city can “be black”. That adaptation is probably not easy.

Personally, I kind of enjoy the “saved” thing. I have been asked many times whether I’m “saved”. I then ask what they mean by “being saved”. It’s always something like “I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior”. I reply “Well, I’m saved too then, but I don’t think just because I’m saved that I can do any bad thing I might want to do. Do you?” Now, some fundamentalists think you can, but most won’t affirm that, and they end up having to agree that, no, just because one is “saved” that doesn’t mean he’s free to do any bad thing he wants to do. “Well, you and I believe the same thing then, at least in that, right? We’re both “saved” in the same way, right?”

Most people here are Southern Baptists, though there are a lot of “Evangelicals” (the Assemblies of God headquarters is here) too. If a Southern Baptist says he’s “saved” and can therefore do anything and still be saved, the next thing to ask is “Well, but other Southern Baptists don’t think that, so are they not saved?” They won’t say the other is “wrong” or “not saved”, just that “my bible tells me…etc”. “So, it’s okay for me to disagree with you about it too and still be saved, then, right?” is the response.

No sense being intimidated by things like that. Those people are searching, and most of them are sincere (though ignorant) about it.

One of my absolute favorite things to do if discussing religion with a fundamentalist is to hand him a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and ask him to browse through it and come back and tell me how much of it he disagrees with. He’ll disagree about all the “priest” and “pope” stuff plus anything he reacts to as talking about “tradition”, because he’s been taught to do that. But it really won’t be very much that he finds problematic.

If the discussion gets serious, I like to get out a copy of the doctrinal statement of whatever church he belongs to. With fundamentalists and evangelicals it sure isn’t very much. Then I enjoy asking where he got the rest of what he believes if he doesn’t disagree with much of anything in the CCC. Um, uh.

The truth is, it’s part of the impression Catholic belief has had on western culture for millenia. Most protestants, particularly fundamentalists, believe all kinds of things the Catholic Church teaches, but don’t know where they got it. They sure didn’t get it from what their own churches formally teach.

I enjoy telling them where they got it, but I like to do it in a nice way.

 

[90Domer]

Ridge, I wish I met you before moving to NC. I was young, and it was quite a bit of a culture shock. Let me just say the first weekend I was down there, I witnessed a KKK rally.

Slowly, I think I gained the respect of some people because I never missed church, even when on vacation. Some couldn’t understand how I could dare go to a church other than my “home church.” I explained the beauty of Catholic Mass and the universal church. And I simply said, “God doesn’t take vacation, so why should I?” So, I think I impressed a couple of people.

 

[mary_bobo]

That was certainly not my impression of the south. Frankly, I saw a very good deal of racism of various forms. Very disappointing.

In my opinion, I think Archbishop Chaput and the Philly Archdiocese is a great place to live!

On what facts is your impression based?

 

[anp1215]

On what facts is your impression based?

In the previous post, they mentioned seeing a KKK rally, so that was probably part of it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ridge, I wish I met you before moving to NC. I was young, and it was quite a bit of a culture shock. Let me just say the first weekend I was down there, I witnessed a KKK rally.

Slowly, I think I gained the respect of some people because I never missed church, even when on vacation. Some couldn’t understand how I could dare go to a church other than my “home church.” I explained the beauty of Catholic Mass and the universal church. And I simply said, “God doesn’t take vacation, so why should I?” So, I think I impressed a couple of people.

Again I will assume the people are similar. They probably are, because the “southern highlands” are pretty much entirely populated by the same people; mainly Scots-Irish who have been here since before there was a U.S.

My wife is an Indiana Yankee, and moving here was a culture shock for her. But she got used to it, though it took awhile for her to really understand the people.

The KKK is here too, but they’re nothing like what they once were. Now, they’re just a bunch of ultra low-rent goofballs that nobody respects. Nobody pays any attention to them other than law enforcement, and then usually for drunk driving, stealing or dealing drugs.

Respect is a very, very big thing with them, and sometimes it’s difficult not to step on their pride. Never, ever, ever do I, for example, ask one of them to “work for me”. It’s always “can you help me out?” Never do I “give” one of them anything. It’s always “earned” even if it isn’t. There’s always some kind of “this for that” because lots of them think taking charity is demeaning. “Hey, I thought I would bring (not give) you this because you helped me with that. I appreciated it.”

Drinking is funny. I always have helpers if I want them when I work cattle (I have a small cattle operation in addition to my “day job”) Being Catholic, it’s okay for me to have beer afterwards. But it’s not okay for some of them. But if I offer it, they can wink and take it. “Well, can’t be rude and turn you down, you being Catholic and all, ha, ha, ha.”

They seem to expect a high work level out of Catholics, and maybe for good reason. They’ll accept your success if you visibly work harder than anybody else. I guess that’s an identification of religion with ethnicity, because for a time all Catholics around here were “late comers” and not Scots-Irish, but Irish, German, Polish, etc, and did have a rather different work ethic than a lot of the locals.

I remember one time when a local protestant lady (of Evangelical bent) asked me why Catholics eat blood. I was just astounded and couldn’t figure out why she thought that. Well, after some confusing moments I realized she had gotten that impression from a local Polish harvest festival at which various Polish dishes, including czarnina (duck’s blood soup) were sold. It took me awhile to persuade her that was a Polish thing, not a Catholic thing. She obviously identified anything Polish with 'Catholic" and, learning about czarnina, assumed all Catholics did the same.

One of my grandfathers was Alpine Italian. Alpine Italians apparently are extraordinarily hard workers and very good farmers. He was a farmer and a very effective one. Anyway, he was put to wonder about some of the local hillbillies who would come to him once/week in the dead of winter to buy three or four bales of hay for their milk cows. Eventually he asked one of them why he didn’t just buy a whole winter’s supply at once instead of coming every week for a handful of bales. “Don’t need 'em all at once” was the response. “Well, I can see that. No reason to haul more than you need.” my grandfather responded, realizing the man probably didn’t have barn space for more but didn’t want to admit it. My grandfather was a very thoughtful man and learned how to treat them as they wished to be treated, and charitably. After his death, a local bluegrass group even recorded a song about him.

Oh yes, our relatively new bishop is from Knoxville, Tenn, and refers to himself as a “hillbilly”. His parents were converts. People like him a lot.

 

[Colorad007]

I think in the Northeast, there are dioceses that are liberal to the point of nearly being non-Catholic. I would never want to live in the diocese of Albany or Rochester, NY. However, one bishop has retired and another is about to, and I have full confidence that the Holy Father will appoint good and faithful bishops.

In rural NC, I felt isolated in my faith. Also, the people were not very genuine. They may have been conservative in their thoughts on some topics, but they were also prejudiced. “Black people went to black churches, and white people went to while churches,” as I was told and quickly learned. I was told I wasn’t a Christian, I had not been saved, and a slew of other nasty cracks. And since these people made the decisions in my workplace, I was never able to break the “old boy network” no matter how hard I worked.

In the NE, people may be more cautious, less friendly, but they are also more genuine. This is simply one person’s experience. Well, two if you count my husband.

The Northeast is very liberal and I don’t think that religion is very strong at all there. Much of it is merely cultural. But I wonder if that isn’t true of other parts of hte country, too, including the South. In other words, I wonder how much of evangelical Christianity in the South is sort of a cultural facade. I don’t know the answer, but it’s one I’m curious about.

 

[jwinch2]

The Northeast is very liberal and I don’t think that religion is very strong at all there. Much of it is merely cultural. But I wonder if that isn’t true of other parts of hte country, too, including the South. In other words, I wonder how much of evangelical Christianity in the South is sort of a cultural facade. I don’t know the answer, but it’s one I’m curious about.

Its not a facade. I’ve lived pretty much all over and when I first moved to Tennessee I couldn’t believe how many Churches there were. You literally saw when every other block and every mile or so out in the country, sometimes in groups of 3’s.

When I lived in Baton Rouge, LA I was amazed at the number of Churches, Catholic or otherwise, not to mention the Jimmy Swaggart complex, which is enormous.

Now I am in northern Texas, and there are Churches all over the place.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Northeast is very liberal and I don’t think that religion is very strong at all there. Much of it is merely cultural. But I wonder if that isn’t true of other parts of hte country, too, including the South. In other words, I wonder how much of evangelical Christianity in the South is sort of a cultural facade. I don’t know the answer, but it’s one I’m curious about.

First of all, Fundamentalists and Evangelicals are not the same thing, though there is some overlap to them. I can’t assess peoples’ bona fides except at the margins, but I would say among the Fundamentalists belief is very serious for the most part. Among Evangelicals, perhaps less so. But I would still have more belief in them in general than I would some of the better-known Cafeteria Catholics.

I have a sort of soft spot in my heart for all of them because they struggle a lot with sinfulness that’s just part of human life. They often expect better of themselves than human beings can achieve, and that creates friction with the notion of being “saved” for many. “If I was saved and dedicated my life to Jesus Christ, why did I sin? Was I really saved?” Some go through it over and over again.

I would say that there is a real missionary ground among them, because the sacrament of Penance resolves that conflict. But more importantly, the yearning “to be close to Jesus” is answered in the Eucharist. Ask just about any Fundamentalist or Evangelical convert what caused him/her to convert, and he’ll say “the Eucharist”.

 

[Colorad007]

Its not a facade. I’ve lived pretty much all over and when I first moved to Tennessee I couldn’t believe how many Churches there were. You literally saw when every other block and every mile or so out in the country, sometimes in groups of 3’s.

When I lived in Baton Rouge, LA I was amazed at the number of Churches, Catholic or otherwise, not to mention the Jimmy Swaggart complex, which is enormous.

Now I am in northern Texas, and there are Churches all over the place.

Well, I don’t mean to say that there isn’t a sort of “religious culture” that is present. That is definitely real. But there are lots of churches in the northeast, too. But they aren’t really used. And, to be fair, a lot of the churches in the south are used. But my worry is that Christianity is part of the culture, but not necessarily part of the nitty-gritty of people’s lives. When I worry if it’s a facade in the south, what I mean is that I worry that everybody is religious come Sunday morning, but that religion isn’t really there the night before.

And, I’ll add, that in big cities like Dallas and Houston, while there is a definite religious presence, there is also a big secular, liberal presence, too. I wonder if there are any cities where the whole secular, liberal presence is minimal.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Well, I don’t mean to say that there isn’t a sort of “religious culture” that is present. That is definitely real. But there are lots of churches in the northeast, too. But they aren’t really used. And, to be fair, a lot of the churches in the south are used. But my worry is that Christianity is part of the culture, but not necessarily part of the nitty-gritty of people’s lives. When I worry if it’s a facade in the south, what I mean is that I worry that everybody is religious come Sunday morning, but that religion isn’t really there the night before.

And, I’ll add, that in big cities like Dallas and Houston, while there is a definite religious presence, there is also a big secular, liberal presence, too. I wonder if there are any cities where the whole secular, liberal presence is minimal.

I really can’t think of any, frankly. The inner-city tends to be locked-up in Democrat voting blocks because of poverty and entitlements from the government. Maybe in OK … but OK City has a big gang problem, so not even sure that it’s an exception to the rule. It really is a shame when one or two larger cities drive the politics of the entire state, isn’t it?

But even the inner city areas aren’t necessarily secular, just Democrat voter blocks. There are churches and people can be quite religious. Like some Catholics, they really don’t understand that their core religious values are 180 from their political party’s platform.

 

[Colorad007]

I really can’t think of any, frankly. The inner-city tends to be locked-up in Democrat voting blocks because of poverty and entitlements from the government. Maybe in OK … but OK City has a big gang problem, so not even sure that it’s an exception to the rule. It really is a shame when one or two larger cities drive the politics of the entire state, isn’t it?

But even the inner city areas aren’t necessarily secular, just Democrat voter blocks. There are churches and people can be quite religious. Like some Catholics, they really don’t understand that their core religious values are 180 from their political party’s platform.

It looks like Dallas, Houston, and Colorado are still the most likely choices for us, with Atlanta, San Antonio, and Austin as sort of wildcards.

Since you’ve made the move from Denver to Texas, can you relate the differences and similarities between them in terms of culture, religion, Catholics, etc.? And how hard did you find it to adjust to the move? What did you miss most?

 

[90Domer]

On what facts is your impression based?

I mostly saw it in the workplace where I would overhear conversations about the black people in our group and how they could not possibly advance. Also, the co-workers would discount the opinions of the same co-workers and talk about how unfortunate it was to have to hire them into the company. Also, when spoken about, it was done in hushed tones with a lot of “well, you know why this or that can’t happen.”

As well, many references were to “those people” and parts of town you wanted to avoid at all costs because “those people” lived there.

It wasn’t only blacks either. My Chinese friend was shunned and made fun of because of her accent. This was terribly wrong!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It looks like Dallas, Houston, and Colorado are still the most likely choices for us, with Atlanta, San Antonio, and Austin as sort of wildcards.

Since you’ve made the move from Denver to Texas, can you relate the differences and similarities between them in terms of culture, religion, Catholics, etc.? And how hard did you find it to adjust to the move? What did you miss most?

I’ll send you a PM.

 

[mary_bobo]

I mostly saw it in the workplace where I would overhear conversations about the black people in our group and how they could not possibly advance. Also, the co-workers would discount the opinions of the same co-workers and talk about how unfortunate it was to have to hire them into the company. Also, when spoken about, it was done in hushed tones with a lot of “well, you know why this or that can’t happen.”

As well, many references were to “those people” and parts of town you wanted to avoid at all costs because “those people” lived there.

It wasn’t only blacks either. My Chinese friend was shunned and made fun of because of her accent. This was terribly wrong!

With all due respect, I would say that is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Debora123]

“The North” is a pretty broad area–even more broad, I think, than “the South.”

Florida, for example, is considerably more liberal and non-Christian than, say, Missouri, South Dakota, Kansas, etc.

Even if we say that Florida isn’t really a southern state, then I still wonder about other parts of the south. Is Nashville really that much different than, say, Pittsburgh or Cleveland?

I was referring specifically to Ohio as the “northern” state I lived in, and Florid as the “southern” state I lived in. Though I was living in the very Northern part of Florida, so it was practically Georgia.

Yes, I did sense a tremendous difference between Toledo Ohio and Jacksonville Florida. I came across a TON more conservative/Christians/like-minded folks in Florida than I did in Ohio. Even just driving down the street, you see a ton more churches.

 

[Animadversor]

I live in Macon,Ga. population about 100K with three Catholic churches.QUOTE]

I’ve always found it interesting that in Macon there is a very prominent road named Pio Nono!

 

[Ridgerunner]

I live in Arkansas (born and raised here). We live in the northwest part of the state which is not so rural as other parts of Arkansas, but still most cities here have only one Catholic church. They tend to be giant parishes since there’s only one per town, though. There is not a Catholic elementary school in our city, though there are a few in neighboring cities. No Catholic high school anywhere in the area, though there are other private Christian schools.

Most people here go to one of the Southern Baptist mega-churches or to the non-denominational strip-mall churches, which seem to be some type of spin off of Southern Baptist. I’ve never personally encountered any negative reaction for being Catholic, though I know I’ve heard it. For example, a co-worker of my mother’s was talking about being appalled that their niece was going to marry a gasp Catholic!!

I live in SW Mo. I could almost throw a rock into your back yard. (I won’t) Pretty much all of SW. Mo. is as you describe, except that there are a few high Catholic densities here and there, though small ones. We’re a little better off for Catholic schools, I take it, with one Catholic high school in Springfield and one in Joplin. But it’s a long way between them.

There is at least one NW Ark Catholic grade school, I know about. My granddaughter’s parish school basketball team played against one from there. Can’t remember the name of the Ark Catholic school, though. Maybe from Rogers? I just can’t remember.

Years and years ago, this area was very anti-Catholic. But that has all changed. We get a lot of converts too, nearly all from Fundamentalist or Evangelical congregations. Not much from the “mainline” congregations (which seem to be dying out), but a few here and there.

I understand you have a pretty good bishop there. Ours is a fine one. Fairly young, from Knoxville, Tenn. He declares himself a “hillbilly”. His parents were converts. Southern Baptists, I think they were.

I agree that NW Ark isn’t really all that rural. Neither is SW Mo. I read once that if you drew a flat oval taking in Springfield and head southwest, taking in Springdale, Bentonville, Rogers and Fayetteville and all the towns in between, then circling back taking in the lake area and back to Springfield, there are a million people within that oval, and that’s true even if you leave Neosho and Joplin out. That’s a lot of people. Just outside of that oval, though, there’s not much but bears and the ghosts of baldknobbers.

I think the Church has a good future here. I really do.

 

[kkollwitz]

“you’re the oddball out in an overwhelmingly Protestant culture”

I live in Greenville SC, home of Bob Jones University. It’s a great place to be Catholic. People take God seriously here, and will challenge your faith, which means Catholics must “be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.”

 

[DebChris]

“you’re the oddball out in an overwhelmingly Protestant culture”

I live in Greenville SC, home of Bob Jones University. It’s a great place to be Catholic. People take God seriously here, and will challenge your faith, which means Catholics must “be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.”

I loved explaining the “grease on my forehead” on Ash Wednesday.