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thephilosopher6
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Well, you have this site. New Advent is also a good resource.
Well, I suppose I did already clarify that.
Interesting.
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drac16
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Probably Islam. Both Judaism and Islam teach that God is a single Divine Person, who has no physical image. That belief is central to both faiths. Jews recite the Shema all the time, whereas muslims recite surah 112, which are both declarations of God’s Oneness. Like you said, there are also some parallels in our dietary laws (Halal and Kosher). Like muslims, jews refrain from eating blood and pork, respectively.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church
106
As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New
106
As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Prayer and good deeds are also very important, and Christianity believes this too. I know modern day Judaism has a different view of sacrifice than Christianity, but both put a great deal of stress on it. Particularly the Orthodox Jews and Orthodox (Catholic, Orthodox, and mainline Protestants) Christians. . . . . . .
Regarding these and other similar passages concerning sacrifice, isn’t the Jewish view entirely different from that of the Christian view?. . . . .One is the notion that sacrifice is the highest form of worship in Judaism. This is not really the case according to the Hebrew Bible. The highest form of worship is and always has been prayer and good deeds. . . .
If God desires steadfast love, knowledge of God, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving one’s neighbor as oneself,* rather than sacrifice*; why did any animal have to die? Why did Christ have to die? The answers must be quite different.
Hosea 6 (NRSVCE)
Impenitence of Israel and Judah
4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes away early.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets,
I have killed them by the words of my mouth,
and mya] judgment goes forth as the light.
6 **For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,**the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Proverbs 21 (NRSVCE)
21 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.
2 All deeds are right in the sight of the doer,
but the Lord weighs the heart.
3 To do righteousness and justice**
is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
**
** Matthew 9 (NRSVCE)****
The Call of Matthew**
9 As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth; and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him.
10 And as he sat at dinnera] in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting**(“Matthew 9 NRSVCE - And after getting into a boat he - Bible Gateway”)] with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 But when he heard this, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.”
** Mark 12 (NRSVCE)**
The First Commandment
28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?”
29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’** and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices**.”
34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
My point wasn’t necessarily about atonement. (Though, I do believe ancient Jews believed in the necessity of sin offerings)Regarding these and other similar passages concerning sacrifice, isn’t the Jewish view entirely different from that of the Christian view?
If God desires steadfast love, knowledge of God, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving one’s neighbor as oneself,* rather than sacrifice*; why did any animal have to die? Why did Christ have to die? The answers must be quite different.
Hosea 6 (NRSVCE)
Impenitence of Israel and Judah
4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes away early.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets,
I have killed them by the words of my mouth,
and mya] judgment goes forth as the light.
6 **For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,**the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Proverbs 21 (NRSVCE)
21 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.
2 All deeds are right in the sight of the doer,
but the Lord weighs the heart.
3 To do righteousness and justice**
is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
**
** Matthew 9 (NRSVCE)****
The Call of Matthew**
9 As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth; and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him.
10 And as he sat at dinnera] in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting**(“Matthew 9 NRSVCE - And after getting into a boat he - Bible Gateway”)] with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 But when he heard this, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.”
** Mark 12 (NRSVCE)**
The First Commandment
28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?”
29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’** and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices**.”
34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.
I also responded to Meltzerboy on that.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
thephilosopher6,My point wasn’t necessarily about atonement. (Though, I do believe ancient Jews believed in the necessity of sin offerings)
I also responded to Meltzerboy on that.
I’m a bit confused. Aren’t you speaking of atonement here?
. . . . .. . . .Jews and Christians also believe the duty of a priest is to offer sacrifices. Though Christians and modern Judaism today may have different views of the purpose of sacrifice, it is still seen as the highest way to worship God. As said before, Jews can’t offer sacrifice because there is no temple, but Orthodox Jews want to resume the practice again sometime in the future. Christian priest offer the sacrifice of Mass on Sunday, and in the Roman rite, everyday. It is seen as a true sacrifice, offered up to God, the very body and blood of Jesus Christ in the form of bread and wine, it is united to the sacrifice of the cross, and has been continually offered up throughout the ages
I realize sacrifices were offered for atonement, but there came a time when God seemed weary of them, as seen in the passages I quoted in my last post.
As a Christian, how would you answer this question: If God desires steadfast love, knowledge of God, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving one’s neighbor as oneself,* rather than sacrifice*; why did Christ have to die? After all, God is God and He makes the rules. I’m a Christian and I’ve never really heard a good answer to this question. Nothing is higher than God. He chooses the means of salvation.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Awesome!Catechism of the Catholic Church
106
As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New
Caritas!
MJ
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thephilosopher6
Guest
I was simply comparing.thephilosopher6,
I’m a bit confused. Aren’t you speaking of atonement here?
I realize sacrifices were offered for atonement, but there came a time when God seemed weary of them, as seen in the passages I quoted in my last post.
As a Christian, how would you answer this question: If God desires steadfast love, knowledge of God, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving one’s neighbor as oneself,* rather than sacrifice*; why did Christ have to die? After all, God is God and He makes the rules. I’m a Christian and I’ve never really heard a good answer to this question. Nothing is higher than God. He chooses the means of salvation.
Also, Christ sacrafice is essential to Christianity for forgiveness. Denying this is heretical.
“In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” - Hebrews 9:22
Sacrafice of course means nothing without prayer, good deeds, and most important, repentance. The same thing applied in the Old Testament as the new.
“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,” - Hebrews 10:26
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Anna_Scott
Guest
I am not denying the Sacrifice of Christ. I simply asked for an answer to a question, which, btw, you did not answer.I was simply comparing.
Also, Christ sacrafice is essential to Christianity for forgiveness. Denying this is heretical.
“In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” - Hebrews 9:22
Sacrafice of course means nothing without prayer, good deeds, and most important, repentance. The same thing applied in the Old Testament as the new.
“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,” - Hebrews 10:26
The question:
If God desires steadfast love, knowledge of God, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving one’s neighbor as oneself, rather than sacrifice; why did Christ have to die? After all, God is God and He makes the rules. I’m a Christian and I’ve never really heard a good answer to this question. Nothing is higher than God. He chooses the means of salvation.
V
Vico
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas thought that the restoration of fallen man was a work of God’s free mercy and benevolence, not one of necessity.I am not denying the Sacrifice of Christ. I simply asked for an answer to a question, which, btw, you did not answer.
The question:
If God desires steadfast love, knowledge of God, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving one’s neighbor as oneself, rather than sacrifice; why did Christ have to die? After all, God is God and He makes the rules. I’m a Christian and I’ve never really heard a good answer to this question. Nothing is higher than God. He chooses the means of salvation.
From Catholic Encyclopedia, explains that Mosaic Law and Nature were insufficient to reconcile God and the world.
The word atonement, which is almost the only theological term of English origin, has a curious history. The verb “atone”, from the adverbial phrase “at one” (M.E. at oon), at first meant to reconcile, or make “at one”; from this it came to denote the action by which such reconciliation was effected, e.g. satisfaction for all offense or an injury. Hence, in Catholic theology, the Atonement is the Satisfaction of Christ, whereby God and the world are reconciled or made to be at one. “For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself” (2 Corinthians 5:19). The Catholic doctrine on this subject is set forth in the sixth Session of the Council of Trent, chapter ii. Having shown the insufficiency of Nature, and of Mosaic Law the Council continues:
Whence it came to pass, that the Heavenly Father, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1, 3), when that blessed fullness of the time was come (Galatians 4:4) sent unto men Jesus Christ, His own Son who had been, both before the Law and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised, that He might both redeem the Jews, who were under the Law and that the Gentiles who followed not after justice might attain to justice and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God had proposed as a propitiator, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world (I John ii, 2).
…
As both Abelard and Bernard remind us, the Atonement is the work of love. It is essentially a sacrifice, the one supreme sacrifice of which the rest were but types and figures. And, as St. Augustine teaches us, the outward rite of Sacrifice is the sacrament, or sacred sign, of the invisible sacrifice of the heart. It was by this inward sacrifice of obedience unto death, by this perfect love with which He laid down his life for His friends, that Christ paid the debt to justice, and taught us by His example, and drew all things to Himself; it was by this that He wrought our Atonement and Reconciliation with God, “making peace through the blood of His Cross”.
…
As both Abelard and Bernard remind us, the Atonement is the work of love. It is essentially a sacrifice, the one supreme sacrifice of which the rest were but types and figures. And, as St. Augustine teaches us, the outward rite of Sacrifice is the sacrament, or sacred sign, of the invisible sacrifice of the heart. It was by this inward sacrifice of obedience unto death, by this perfect love with which He laid down his life for His friends, that Christ paid the debt to justice, and taught us by His example, and drew all things to Himself; it was by this that He wrought our Atonement and Reconciliation with God, “making peace through the blood of His Cross”.
Kent, W. (1907). Doctrine of the Atonement. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm
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