What's Really Going On With Those Kooky Jesuits?

[Nom_the_Wise]

This was recently posted in “Do Protestants Really Hate Catholics” by user PiusX:

**"Yes, too many still do, but no group on earth hates the catholic church more than the Jesuits do.

Just take a good look at what they are doing in their retreat houses and college campuses.

The Jesuits have caused more damage to the Holy Church than all the protestants combined in the last 50 yrs."

---

PiusX **

Now, it could just be that PiusX is mentally unstable, but I’m no psychologist.

The thing is, I was once a Catholic Diocesan Seminarian in Chicago at a Jesuit University, and people (even other priests) used to joke about how the Jesuits are, and I use this term in replacement of other less publishable ones, kooky.

When we would attend Mass with them, they used a type of bread that was, well, actually bread; it was even sweet and, dare I say it, chewy. We used to joke about what was next, in fear of processing up for communion and hear the words from our Eucharistic minister “Danish of Christ,” to which we would begrudgingly respond “Amen–I think.”

For many years I have heard rumblings about the Jesuits, and so I wanted to start a post where perhaps Jesuits could defend themselves. Or perhaps to hear once and for all something edifying about the Jesuits. I hope no one will be mean here. So what’s really going with those “kooky” Jesuits? What’s the history behind Jesuit bashing?

 

[Eucharisted]

Jesuits have spread the Faith far and wide, so of course lots of people hate them, for various reasons. They’ve also made many mistakes in their history, so some Catholics are pretty supescious of them. That’s my thoughts.

 

[mystified]

Again we see a problem with generalization or over simplification.

Some 45 years ago, when I asked priest about something from Jesuits that was bothering me, he rsponded with a smile and asking, “Are the Jebbies still in the Church?”

There seems no shortage of strange or irregular things happening from the Jesuits. I have no clue as to the answers.

However, we cannot paint all Jesuits with the same broad brush. Think the late Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ.

 

[tuviskazinai]

I am very much interested in the Jesuits, have spoken with some, and am planning on visiting some provinces this summer. But I cannot claim any authority on this thread, especially because most of the Jesuit-produced literature I’ve read has not exactly tackled the “kookiness” question head-on!

If I had to hazard some guesses as to why they have by and large (but not uniformly) wandered leftward, I’d say it’s first of all because they are educators. Educators, in order to be effective, need to view issues from multiple points of view – they cannot just hammer a “party-line,” or else they will neither grow themselves nor be able to respond adequately to their students’ challenges. Probably some of them have gotten a little excited by ideas that weren’t entirely orthodox, and taken those ideas beyond merely hypothetical arguments.

Secondly, Jesuit priests and brothers are dedicated to living out in the world. They have been extraordinarily effective missionaries throughout their history, but they have done so by adopting a charitable attitude of listening, of assimilating, so as to understand their neighbors and spread the Gospel from the inside, rather than imposing it harshly and arrogantly from outside. (For a good example, take the great Matteo Ricci, SJ, in China.) This urge to assimilate may at times put them slightly outside of the Church’s liturgical traditions, let’s say…in other words, Jesuit missionaries to Native American reservations in North Dakota will probably never win many souls by insisting on using the Gregorian chant. And once a certain liberal-ness with the Second Vatican Council’s liturgical guidelines has taken root, it’s hard to know where to draw the line. (I am not judging them, personally…I am just trying to wrap my head around something like the Jesuit priest at RIT who, in an apparent effort to look “cool” to the student population at the Newman Center, aspersed Holy Water with a super-soaker spraygun recently.)

Thirdly, one of the Jesuits’ main charisms has always been social justice. While there is no reason that this should rub Catholics the wrong way, I think the unfortunate explosion of liberation theology in the 20th century took the imaginations of many social-worker priests for a period of several decades, and we all know what kinds of condemnations of liberation theology and of certain Jesuit theologians followed suit…

Fourthly, it seems to me that many of the complaints I hear about the Jesuits on this forum or on sites like CNA stem from decisions made by presidents of their universities. (Eg, allowing The Vagina Monologues or a gay-themed film series to be produced, abortion being covered in a student health plan, things like that.) Well, the Jesuits run the absolute best Catholic colleges in the country that welcome non-Catholics, and so they are bound to get mashed up with pop culture and secular America every once and a while.

But in response to these suggestions, there is much to be said…they are still fantastic theologians, missionaries, educators, seekers of social justice… I have talked to many non-Catholics who became sympathetic to the Church because they studied at a Jesuit school. And there are many more mainstream (theologically) Jesuit priests and administrators (I know I breathed a sigh of relief when I read about the president of BC’s decision to reinstate crucifixes in all of his classrooms)…not to mention hundreds of years of history producing great men like St Francis Xavier, Gerard Manley Hopkins,Peter de Smet, Walter Ciszek, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (though that’s a slightly controversial example)…

If the Jesuits have gotten a bad rap in the 20th century, I would suggest they need our prayers (more so than our enmity or sarcasm) as their new superior, Father Adolfo Nicolas, forges a relationship with a new pope and leads the order into a new century where their intellectual gifts, powerful spirituality, and commitment to world peace are much needed. And besides – something I’ve heard, and repeated, often is that the new generation of Jesuit postulants is on the whole more conservative now that the excitement of Vatican II has receded a bit into the past…

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[BSHoop96]

I am very much interested in the Jesuits, have spoken with some, and am planning on visiting some provinces this summer. But I cannot claim any authority on this thread, especially because most of the Jesuit-produced literature I’ve read has not exactly tackled the “kookiness” question head-on!

If I had to hazard some guesses as to why they have by and large (but not uniformly) wandered leftward, I’d say it’s first of all because they are educators. Educators, in order to be effective, need to view issues from multiple points of view – they cannot just hammer a “party-line,” or else they will neither grow themselves nor be able to respond adequately to their students’ challenges. Probably some of them have gotten a little excited by ideas that weren’t entirely orthodox, and taken those ideas beyond merely hypothetical arguments.

Secondly, Jesuit priests and brothers are dedicated to living out in the world. They have been extraordinarily effective missionaries throughout their history, but they have done so by adopting a charitable attitude of listening, of assimilating, so as to understand their neighbors and spread the Gospel from the inside, rather than imposing it harshly and arrogantly from outside. (For a good example, take the great Matteo Ricci, SJ, in China.) This urge to assimilate may at times put them slightly outside of the Church’s liturgical traditions, let’s say…in other words, Jesuit missionaries to Native American reservations in North Dakota will probably never win many souls by insisting on using the Gregorian chant. And once a certain liberal-ness with the Second Vatican Council’s liturgical guidelines has taken root, it’s hard to know where to draw the line. (I am not judging them, personally…I am just trying to wrap my head around something like the Jesuit priest at RIT who, in an apparent effort to look “cool” to the student population at the Newman Center, aspersed Holy Water with a super-soaker spraygun recently.)

Thirdly, one of the Jesuits’ main charisms has always been social justice. While there is no reason that this should rub Catholics the wrong way, I think the unfortunate explosion of liberation theology in the 20th century took the imaginations of many social-worker priests for a period of several decades, and we all know what kinds of condemnations of liberation theology and of certain Jesuit theologians followed suit…

Fourthly, it seems to me that many of the complaints I hear about the Jesuits on this forum or on sites like CNA stem from decisions made by presidents of their universities. (Eg, allowing The Vagina Monologues or a gay-themed film series to be produced, abortion being covered in a student health plan, things like that.) Well, the Jesuits run the absolute best Catholic colleges in the country that welcome non-Catholics, and so they are bound to get mashed up with pop culture and secular America every once and a while.

But in response to these suggestions, there is much to be said…they are still fantastic theologians, missionaries, educators, seekers of social justice… I have talked to many non-Catholics who became sympathetic to the Church because they studied at a Jesuit school. And there are many more mainstream (theologically) Jesuit priests and administrators (I know I breathed a sigh of relief when I read about the president of BC’s decision to reinstate crucifixes in all of his classrooms)…not to mention hundreds of years of history producing great men like St Francis Xavier, Gerard Manley Hopkins,Peter de Smet, Walter Ciszek, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (though that’s a slightly controversial example)…

If the Jesuits have gotten a bad rap in the 20th century, I would suggest they need our prayers (more so than our enmity or sarcasm) as their new superior, Father Adolfo Nicolas, forges a relationship with a new pope and leads the order into a new century where their intellectual gifts, powerful spirituality, and commitment to world peace are much needed. And besides – something I’ve heard, and repeated, often is that the new generation of Jesuit postulants is on the whole more conservative now that the excitement of Vatican II has receded a bit into the past…

Peace,
+AMDG+

I think this post makes a lot of sense. I have heard lately that there are very few universities that can in the truest sense be called Catholic. While the Jesuits have done many wonderful things I think their first loyalty in teaching in a Catholic University is to the Catholic Church. I mean all this nonsense about trying to fit in is like a parent trying to be their child’s “best friend”. It just doesn’t produce the desired results.

 

[stuart12]

I regularly go to a Jesuit parish in Edinburgh whilst I am in the city for university. i have not had any problems so far. the priests generally do not wear their collars or that but I spoke to the superior last week about a vocation and he was brilliant. he always seemed to me a simple man, but he had a great wisdom and broke down all that I had to say, gave me lots of advice and things to think about.

i also met a novice from the Society this week and he was perfectly normal too. full of love for Christ and His Church, and had a great devotion to the Saints and the liturgy.

no problems here…so far

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

I am very much interested in the Jesuits, have spoken with some, and am planning on visiting some provinces this summer. But I cannot claim any authority on this thread, especially because most of the Jesuit-produced literature I’ve read has not exactly tackled the “kookiness” question head-on!

If I had to hazard some guesses as to why they have by and large (but not uniformly) wandered leftward, I’d say it’s first of all because they are educators. Educators, in order to be effective, need to view issues from multiple points of view – they cannot just hammer a “party-line,” or else they will neither grow themselves nor be able to respond adequately to their students’ challenges. Probably some of them have gotten a little excited by ideas that weren’t entirely orthodox, and taken those ideas beyond merely hypothetical arguments.

Secondly, Jesuit priests and brothers are dedicated to living out in the world. They have been extraordinarily effective missionaries throughout their history, but they have done so by adopting a charitable attitude of listening, of assimilating, so as to understand their neighbors and spread the Gospel from the inside, rather than imposing it harshly and arrogantly from outside. (For a good example, take the great Matteo Ricci, SJ, in China.) This urge to assimilate may at times put them slightly outside of the Church’s liturgical traditions, let’s say…in other words, Jesuit missionaries to Native American reservations in North Dakota will probably never win many souls by insisting on using the Gregorian chant. And once a certain liberal-ness with the Second Vatican Council’s liturgical guidelines has taken root, it’s hard to know where to draw the line. (I am not judging them, personally…I am just trying to wrap my head around something like the Jesuit priest at RIT who, in an apparent effort to look “cool” to the student population at the Newman Center, aspersed Holy Water with a super-soaker spraygun recently.)

Thirdly, one of the Jesuits’ main charisms has always been social justice. While there is no reason that this should rub Catholics the wrong way, I think the unfortunate explosion of liberation theology in the 20th century took the imaginations of many social-worker priests for a period of several decades, and we all know what kinds of condemnations of liberation theology and of certain Jesuit theologians followed suit…

Fourthly, it seems to me that many of the complaints I hear about the Jesuits on this forum or on sites like CNA stem from decisions made by presidents of their universities. (Eg, allowing The Vagina Monologues or a gay-themed film series to be produced, abortion being covered in a student health plan, things like that.) Well, the Jesuits run the absolute best Catholic colleges in the country that welcome non-Catholics, and so they are bound to get mashed up with pop culture and secular America every once and a while.

But in response to these suggestions, there is much to be said…they are still fantastic theologians, missionaries, educators, seekers of social justice… I have talked to many non-Catholics who became sympathetic to the Church because they studied at a Jesuit school. And there are many more mainstream (theologically) Jesuit priests and administrators (I know I breathed a sigh of relief when I read about the president of BC’s decision to reinstate crucifixes in all of his classrooms)…not to mention hundreds of years of history producing great men like St Francis Xavier, Gerard Manley Hopkins,Peter de Smet, Walter Ciszek, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (though that’s a slightly controversial example)…

If the Jesuits have gotten a bad rap in the 20th century, I would suggest they need our prayers (more so than our enmity or sarcasm) as their new superior, Father Adolfo Nicolas, forges a relationship with a new pope and leads the order into a new century where their intellectual gifts, powerful spirituality, and commitment to world peace are much needed. And besides – something I’ve heard, and repeated, often is that the new generation of Jesuit postulants is on the whole more conservative now that the excitement of Vatican II has receded a bit into the past…

Peace,
+AMDG+

This is a VERY well thought out post. I couldn’t have presented a better argument myself. I think it’s sad how all Jesuits have gotten a bad rap in the 20th century. While there may be a few that don’t quite present the Church as best they should, I don’t think ALL of them should be painted with the liberalist brush.

 

[iamMyBeloveds]

This is a VERY well thought out post. I couldn’t have presented a better argument myself. I think it’s sad how all Jesuits have gotten a bad rap in the 20th century. While there may be a few that don’t quite present the Church as best they should, I don’t think ALL of them should be painted with the liberalist brush.

You said it, CarmeliteGirl25! I agree with you. While some don’t represent the Church very well, I know of several Jesuit priests that I really respect and admire. I go to Confession to them all the time and they challenge me to a greater holiness. They remind me of what Jesus might be like in the confessional, full of tender mercy, but always willing to give you advice and challenging suggestions to help you overcome sin. I get really offended when someone cracks a “Jesuit joke”. The Jesuit priests I have met are wise and faithful to their flocks. Look at Fr. Mitch Pacwa! He’s a Jesuit and an extremely faithful and intelligent priest.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

iamMyBeloveds: I adore Mitch Pacwa. I have attended a couple of his lectures and he’s brilliant. He has done much to combat New Age thought, more than most from any order.

But what is the “Jesuit stigma” to give it a term. Why the Jesuits of all the other orders? You don’t hear things about the Franciscans, Carmelites, BVM’s, Alexians, LaSallian Christian Brothers, just the Jesuits.

I am hoping someone will p(name removed by moderator)oint some moment in history when the Jesuits became pariahs of leftism. Really, I’m not left or right in my personal life; I tend to sit in the pews on the aisle, as it were. The right-hand aisle, perhaps, but I give the sign of peace to my nieghbors on the left side regardless.

**mystified **mentioned in an earlier post the term “the Jebbies.” I’ve heard that term as well. No one ever says with a snide tone “What’s with those Frankies?” Or *“Not more of that Carmy propoganda!” *You see what I mean?

As far as I can tell, this issue is longstanding (mystified said he’d first heard the phrase 45 years ago).

Fr. Mitch Pacwa, are you out there? Do you subscribe to CAF? Perhaps I am a poor researcher (or I’m getting lazy) but there has to be a reason for this. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire, so they say. Why the Jesuits specifically? What did they do? To whom did they do it?

 

[iamMyBeloveds]

Really, I’m not left or right in my personal life; I tend to sit in the pews on the aisle, as it were. The right-hand aisle, perhaps, but I give the sign of peace to my nieghbors on the left side regardless.

I am somewhat like you in this regard, what a beautiful way to describe it! Sitting on the right hand section, while giving the sign of peace to our neighbors on the left. I am going to use that terminology in the future, if you don’t mind! It helps to describe a situation I have always sought to put words to for so long.

I attended one of Fr. Mitch Pacwa’s lectures too. He really is brilliant.

I did find a Time Magazine Article that might help describe some of the issues that went down regarding the Jesuits and the papacy, specifically Pope John Paul II (or John Paul the Great ). I don’t know much about the issue at hand myself, except from little points here and there about some members’ conflicts with the papacy several years back. I hope this article helps to make things a bit more clear.
Yes, while I totally agree that the Jesuits should respect and follow the Pope’s teachings and remain faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, I wonder as to how many Jesuits are actually conflicted with Church authority. The ones I have met do not seem to be so at all.

Here’s the Time Article: time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,922654,00.html

I hope someone else more knowledgeable than I answers these questions for us!

 

[scylla]

The Jesuits in the past have been fierce loyal supporters\defenders of the faith and helped spread the faith through missionary work, schools, study and evangelization. Yet this has changed…

Here is an article that helps describe what happened and some quotes from it.

There are still many faithful Jesuits and they valiently defend the faith even while being almost persecuted by other Jesuits for being faithful to Christ.

Here

Here are some quotes from the article.
“Liberalism had been seen to foster tolerance and mutual respect in pluralist secular communities. Yet, being purely negative in content and procedural in application, it proved lethal when imported into an intentional association like the Society of Jesus, one both doctrinally exclusivist and rigidly hierarchical. Almost overnight the pope’s light infantry became a battalion in which every man decided for himself which war he was fighting. The result was an institutional nightmare: confusion and cowardice at the top; despair, rage, and disillusionment in the ranks. American Jesuits went from 8,400 members in 1965 to 3,500 today. Entering novices declined from a peak one-year total of 409 to a low of 38”

"Yet at its heart, the crisis is not one of size but of allegiance. One of the signal services performed by “Passionate Uncertainty” is that it lets us hear influential Jesuits–those who shape policy–speak their minds frankly, in words unsoftened by the public relations personnel in the fund-raising offices. “I am appalled by the direction of the present papacy,” says a university administrator. "I am scandalized by Rome’s intransigent refusal to re-examine its doctrines

regarding gender and
sex. . . . Frankly I think the church is
being governed by thugs." “The church as we have known it is dying,” a retreat master insists. “I hope and pray that the Society will help to facilitate this death and resurrection.” An academic gloats, “The Society has not sold its soul to the ‘Restoration’ of John Paul II.” Another Jesuit scholar, a church historian, ranks John Paul II as “probably the worst pope of all times”–adding, “He’s not one of the worst popes; he’s the worst. Don’t misquote me.” The respondents make it clear that their contempt for the pope is based almost entirely on his intransigence, his unwillingness to imitate their own adaptability in the matter of doctrine."

Read the article it is quite comprehensive.

The article was written by Paul Shaughnessy, S.J., who is a Jesuit priest and frequent contributor to Catholic World Report.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Allen537]

The thing is, I was once a Catholic Diocesan Seminarian in Chicago at a Jesuit University

St. Joseph’s at Loyola University Chicago???

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

St. Joseph’s at Loyola University Chicago???

*Shhhhhhh! It’s a secret.

I don’t know you, do I? My mistake for being so explicit; I’m trying to vent a little without saying names.

From now on let’s just say St. Woseph at Crayola University. It will be just between us… *

Ted Ross SJ once gave a talk at our seminary, and he was introduced this way…

“I know he’s a Jesuit, but he still does a lot of good. Please welcome Fr. Ross.”

I have to say to those who have posted articles (like iamMyBeloveds, scylla) that reading them brought all the memories back…Ahh yes, the Jesuits…rebels without applause…haughty and a little naughty…I had totally forgotten (I read CAF to keep up on things, and to remind myself of all that I don’t know yet. Or forget…).

I guess I was motivated to post this thread because of the quote from “PiusX” (I wonder why he hasn’t contributed to this? Maybe I’ll send him an invite…or maybe not). I didn’t want to Jesuit bash, but I suppose no Jesuits have been contacted to set us straight. I’ve been out of seminary for some time now and haven’t heard anything recent about the Jesuits and so I hoped that everything was okay again. People are looking at this thread, so I suppose there are still rumblings, but I’m beginning to regret it.

(Allen537–If you’ve had association with St. Woseph and want to know who I am, private message me and I’ll tell YOU. I did all my four years there, but I don’t want to say which years I went as I’ve said enough on other threads that someone who knew me might p(name removed by moderator)oint my identity. Then I could be sued, methinks. )

 

[Allen537]

*Shhhhhhh! It’s a secret.

I don’t know you, do I? My mistake for being so explicit; I’m trying to vent a little without saying names.

From now on let’s just say St. Woseph at Crayola University. It will be just between us… *

Ted Ross SJ once gave a talk at our seminary, and he was introduced this way…

“I know he’s a Jesuit, but he still does a lot of good. Please welcome Fr. Ross.”

I have to say to those who have posted articles (like iamMyBeloveds, scylla) that reading them brought all the memories back…Ahh yes, the Jesuits…rebels without applause…haughty and a little naughty…I had totally forgotten (I read CAF to keep up on things, and to remind myself of all that I don’t know yet. Or forget…).

I guess I was motivated to post this thread because of the quote from “PiusX” (I wonder why he hasn’t contributed to this? Maybe I’ll send him an invite…or maybe not). I didn’t want to Jesuit bash, but I suppose no Jesuits have been contacted to set us straight. I’ve been out of seminary for some time now and haven’t heard anything recent about the Jesuits and so I hoped that everything was okay again. People are looking at this thread, so I suppose there are still rumblings, but I’m beginning to regret it.

(Allen537–If you’ve had association with St. Woseph and want to know who I am, private message me and I’ll tell YOU. I did all my four years there, but I don’t want to say which years I went as I’ve said enough on other threads that someone who knew me might p(name removed by moderator)oint my identity. Then I could be sued, methinks. )

Hahaha!!!

As my dear old grandmother used to say: Not to worry!

People have been making fun of the Jesuits for much longer than I have been alive. I remember seeing a web page of jokes about Jesuits run by a Jesuit

Though I have to admit, some if it the bring on themselves. But for the most part it all done in good fun.

 

[CapIV]

The actual mission and founding of the Jesuits is quite attractive, admirable, and valid.

That said, almost every Jesuit priest I have ever met has indeed been a ‘kook’. Most Jesuits today care much more about being ‘worldly’ and making sure they are perceived as ‘accepting’ and ‘tolerant’ by outsiders than they are about being strict adherents to Truth and uniform faith in the magisterium.