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underdog
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I’m sorry Prodigal,Well, if you were really interested in fair, wouldn’t you address questions put forth towards yourself instead of only asking others questions?
npatrol:
What questions did you want me to answer in regards to God’s amazing grace?
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Prodigal_Son1
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Interesting you want to turn to things not in the Bible. Maybe you can share where sola scriptura, or private interpretation can be found in the Bible?
I asked you earlier, how one knows his private interpretation is correct over all others? Scriptures clearly addresses that we should be of the same mind and judgment and to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties. Private interpretations opens the doors to differences in doctrines and of course different minds and judgments.
Christ is not divided, nor did He intend Himself or His followers to be. He prayed for us to be one, as He and the Father are one.
St. Ignatius, student of St. John, appointed to the see of Antioch by St. Peter himself, was the first to use the term Catholic Church. Being St. Ignatius was a disciple of St. John’s and appointed by St. Peter prior to when the Bible canon was defined, the term Catholic Church came about prior the New Testament coming together.
npatrol:
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Prodigal_Son1
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In all fairness, how can you hold us to the topic you wish to discuss, yet speak of other topics at will? You ventured off and need to address the other issues you’ve brought up.
npatrol:
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Prodigal_Son1
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Catholics have an obligation to the weekend Mass, but we don’t limit our worship to one day a week. There is a daily Mass everyday of the week, which is very much unlike Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Calvinists, or any other Church that also calls themselves Christians that I know of.
What better way to thank God for his grace than to live one’s faith 24/7?
I find it interesting that you seem to somehow want to hold the Catholic Church to the example of the 1st century Christians, because it’s the same Church. Does your Church follow the teachings of the 1st century Christians?
I ask because St. Ignatius who was from the 1st century Church which he called the Catholic Church. He wrote:
Does your Church confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ? The 1st century Christians surely did.
npatrol:
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underdog
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Sure!Does your Church confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ? The 1st century Christians surely did.
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Prodigal_Son1
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wina
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That’s exacyly what I think, because I love this song too and yes my parish sings this song tooWe sing Amazing Grace at our parish. Why would you think that would not be in a Catholic’s heart?
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underdog
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I’m so glad you guys worship God with the hymn “Amazing Grace” written by John Newton. Grace is multi-faucet what greater depth than no finite mind can completely comprehend. I’m just commenting that the author of Amazing Grace saw God’s grace is a deeper way than the Roman Catholic view of grace.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Reformed,
Why do you persist in attacking, besmirching and otherwise saying anything you can against Catholicism? Show me the scriptures that say this is the way one must share their Christian faith?
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tGette
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Interesting…I just sang this song during my evening prayer of the Liturgy of the Hours today!
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underdog
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I am not trying to cause a fight with other Christians. Please don’t take it that way. We are discussing the grace of God. Different Christian traditions understand the grace of God differently than other Christian traditions. It is my understanding that Catholics see God working as a cooperative between God and man. John Newton was definetly a Calvinist who embraces all of the difficult distinctives of Calvininst Christians. He saw himself as a very depraved individual, saved by the sovereign grace of God. Here is more writings of the author of “Amazing Grace”. (IMO), only someone from a Calvinist’s tradition could possibly write the hymn of “Amazing Grace”.
I commit my soul to my gracious God and Savior, who mercifully spared and preserved me, when I was an apostate, a blasphemer, and an infidel, and delivered me from the state of misery on the coast of Africa into which my obstinate wickedness had plunged me; and who has been pleased to admit me (though most unworthy) to preach his glorious gospel.[4]
John Newton
I commit my soul to my gracious God and Savior, who mercifully spared and preserved me, when I was an apostate, a blasphemer, and an infidel, and delivered me from the state of misery on the coast of Africa into which my obstinate wickedness had plunged me; and who has been pleased to admit me (though most unworthy) to preach his glorious gospel.[4]
John Newton
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Prodigal_Son1
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Reformed,
It is very clear to see your jabs against Catholicism under a veil of “sharing our faiths and love for God.” You come here and make your own assumptions of what Catholics believe and ignore any corrections posted to your attention. This kind of activity is not taught in scriptures. If it is, produce it now.
Also, you were asked if your Church believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist to which you responded, sure. I asked for an explanation but you ignored that request. It has an appearance of willing to state something false in order to inflame Catholics. How often does your Church celebrate the Eucharist and do you believe that is celebrating the real body and blood of Christ by receiving communion?
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underdog
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Prodigal,
I wish that you would stop your witch hunt by labeling me with the person who was banned. It’s quite obvious you had a falling out with “Reformed”. Maybe we should just ignore each other for a few days, so you can calm down some. You are sure aggressive and seem to dislike non-Catholic Christians. You are no fun to discuss the grace of God with.
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Prodigal_Son1
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What you’re doing is not discussing. Attacking or besmirching my Church at every opportunity you can might be fun for you, but it’s certainly not Christian according to the scriptures you throw at Catholics. We both know what is what here.
npatrol:
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underdog
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Pordigal,What you’re doing is not discussing. Attacking or besmirching my Church at every opportunity you can might be fun for you, but it’s certainly not Christian according to the scriptures you throw at Catholics. We both know what is what here.
I think I understand you now by your words “my Church”. Somehow you think in your mind that “your Church” consists of exclusively Roman Catholics. You must have a long history with non-Catholic Christians. FYI - there is only one body of Christ, a church that Christ redeemed by His blood. You will be surprised one day that the Kingdom of God will consist of Chrisitans regardless of our religious communities here on earth. It sure seems you love “your church” more than Jesus Christ Himself. That is an attitude you find in Orthodox and Protestant churches too. Christianity is about a person, a living person named Jesus Christ and not about a particular religious community here on earth. The church is truly universal when you can see the bigger picture.
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Prodigal_Son1
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Wow, I love my Church more than Christ…exactly what Reformed used to say.
Showing too much of yourself there.
npatrol:
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Prodigal_Son1
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I love Christ and His Church.
Do you love scriptures? I’m not going to make the same comparison as you did as I believe you did it solely as an ad hominem attack on Catholics who love His Church.
Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made
known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church
Christ loved His Church and you find it appropriate to speak ill of it.
Eph 5:23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject to Christ: so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church and delivered himself up for it:
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church:
Eph 5:30 Because we are members of him, body, of his flesh and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother: and shall cleave to his wife. And they shall be two in one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great sacrament: but I speak in Christ and in the church.
You have claimed in the past, that the Church was “within” each of us, or it’s every Christian everywhere. Do I need to bring up scriptures that speak of the Apostles going INTO a Church, or conversing in a Church to demonstrate you twist only certain verses and use semantics to try and support that theory? There are many.
I’ve heard the silly arguments, that the Catholic Church was not the Church the Apostles wrote about, yet when I produce writings from St. Ignatius, disciple to St. John and appointed by St. Peter, that coined the phrase Catholic Church, you reject those writings. By what authority? You have appointed yourself above many great Christians and given yourself authority.
Before the Bible canon was defined, St. Ignatius wrote (around 106AD):
What did Christ say to the Sadducees to criticize their misinterpretations of scriptures?
Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
What did he tell the Jews who set upon Him for healing on the Sabbath?
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.
What did St. Peter write about the writings of St. Paul?
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Where did Christ say to take one’s brother if the brother had offended him? Why didn’t He say take the offender to scriptures if scriptures were above the Church?
Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
I assume you believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. Why didn’t He inspire it be written that scriptures were the pillar and ground of truth? Why did God inspire it to be written that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth?
**1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. **
You try to cherry pick your scriptures, yet you wrest them as you do the other scriptures.
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RubyT
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What do you think is the Roman Catholic view of grace? How would you, a mortal man, know how deeply others view Gods Grace? This statement is presumptuous. You are right to say Gods grace has a depth that no man can comprehend. Yet you seem to claim you know RC view. So what are you trying to say? That RCs don’t comprehend it but you can?
I do love Amazing Grace and sing it and listen to it often. Several of my CD’s have it and it gives me joy.
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underdog
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Official Roman Catholic theology on grace is quite different than John Newton’s view on grace as a Calvinist theologian and pastor. My comment is not meant to offend, but the view of grace is very different in its effectiveness, and sufficiency for John Newton. For example, John Newton believed in irresistible grace and sovereign grace. He saw himself to be total depraved. I would also say that John Netwon probably had very similar ideas of God’s grace as Saint Augustine.
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