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StrawberryJam
Guest
Could you all list your reasons why a Pagan who lived before the time of Abraham would be so horrible?
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elvisman
Guest
**Because God had already established his headship with Adam.
Abraham came MUCH later.
He was also the same God and Lord over all who brought Noah and his family forth from the flood.
**
Worshipping any other man-made god would then be offensive to God Almighty.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Thank you!
So, by what means did these people from the time of Adam and his children to Abraham have to know this God other than through his creation?
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elvisman
Guest
As in any other period of human existence - by passing it on from generation to generation.
In short - tradition.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Do you think that human sacrifice is a good or bad thing?
This was practiced by most pagan religions.
This was practiced by most pagan religions.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Okay. So, God expected these people to get accuracy from information being passed down, and clearly that failed. I see.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
It was also practiced by others. Jephatha.
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elvisman
Guest
How did it fail?
A tradition only fails when it is wiped out. Your argument is weak.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
A tradition does not have to be true for it to continue. I am sure you can agree there are many traditions you see as false that exist, and existed longer than yours has. That is meaningless.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean by using the term “pagan.” If by pagan you simply mean someone who seeks God based upon the signs appearing in nature and as the grace of God so moves the person, then I suppose there is nothing wrong with that person at all… they would have a hope for salvation the same as one living in the present age that has been deprived of the truth of the christian faith. However, if by using the term “pagan” you are referring to someone who has succumbed to some rather dark practices that run contrary to the moving of the Holy Spirit, then I suppose I would have to say that the “horribleness” would be proven to the extent the person acts in a manner contrary to natural law and what has been revealed to his or her conscience.
Peace,
Robert
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1ke
Guest
This is a rather sweeping statement without any basis in concrete fact.
Which pagans are you referring to-- the time from Adam to Abraham spanning quite a lot of time and many cultures and peoples? There were many “pagans” as individuals and groups.
On what basis do you assert that someone (whomever that may be) thinks “pagans” were “horrible?” And what consistutes horrible? Who is the someone who supposedly thinks this? The Catholic Church? The Jews? God? Someone else?
I think you will have to be much more specific to get anywhere.
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elvisman
Guest
That doesn’t negate the fact that God is real.
your question was:
**Could you all list your reasons why a Pagan who lived before the time of Abraham would be so horrible? **
Now, it seems that this was only a ruse to start an argument about Christianity.
Besides, if we, as Christians believe in the God who created the earth and the first humans, there can be no older tradition.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Hello Robert!
Can you tell me how a person in this time span could have been as you say:
“deprived of the truth of the christian faith”
Who’s fault would this be?
I hope this does not sound too blunt, but it seems there are only so many options here.
One is, tradition failed to do the job and God did not provide any other means but that for those at that time other than his creation to see. Could it also mean that as things were handed down, they were handed down inaccurately? This seems very plausible.
Open to your ideas on the matter.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Perhaps you can tell me why your christian God made conditions as such for these people to believe in him with the very limited means they had to do so. Yet, for some reason be so angry with them for “not getting it”**That doesn’t **negate the fact that God is real.
your question was:
Could you all list your reasons why a Pagan who lived before the time of Abraham would be so horrible?
Now, it seems that this was only a ruse to start an argument about Christianity.
Besides, if we, as Christians believe in the God who created the earth and the first humans, there can be no older tradition.
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Stolle
Guest
So, you’re say tradition failed and it’s plausible that things changed and warped over time.
Well, I’d say that’s probably exactly what happened. For whatever reason that we can’t possibly hope to understand, God chose the line of Abraham(the Jews) to be His prophets and preserve His truth. So in the time between Adam and Abraham, the Truth may have only been preserved down one line. The pagan religions that cropped up in that time were probably simply distortions of the tradition passed down from the time of Adam and Eve. Since it wasn’t meant for them, it wasn’t protected the way it was for the line leading to Abraham.
Think of it like this. You play a game of telephone, where the first guy whispers a sentence to five other people. Each of the five people sends the message down their respective lines. Except for one of the lines, the original guy walks down it while the message travels, and corrects anyone who starts to get it wrong. By the end, you have one completely preserved, and four “purple monkey dishwashers”
As an aside, pagans aren’t “horrible”, but they did/do follow a distortion of God’s Truth. Our commission is to get them back into the fullness of that Truth.
Well, I’d say that’s probably exactly what happened. For whatever reason that we can’t possibly hope to understand, God chose the line of Abraham(the Jews) to be His prophets and preserve His truth. So in the time between Adam and Abraham, the Truth may have only been preserved down one line. The pagan religions that cropped up in that time were probably simply distortions of the tradition passed down from the time of Adam and Eve. Since it wasn’t meant for them, it wasn’t protected the way it was for the line leading to Abraham.
Think of it like this. You play a game of telephone, where the first guy whispers a sentence to five other people. Each of the five people sends the message down their respective lines. Except for one of the lines, the original guy walks down it while the message travels, and corrects anyone who starts to get it wrong. By the end, you have one completely preserved, and four “purple monkey dishwashers”
As an aside, pagans aren’t “horrible”, but they did/do follow a distortion of God’s Truth. Our commission is to get them back into the fullness of that Truth.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Until very recently, the indigenous persons in the South Pacific were never exposed to christianity in any form - save the rare missionary. This would be one example. The indigenous persons of the Americas were not exposed to Christianity until the late 15th century. Even today some persons are brought up in a country or faith tradition that distorts and suppresses the real teachings of Christianity - such as in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
SJ:
In some cases it would be the fault of the repressive government or the fault of distance or lack of funding to support mission work. However, the Christian community does have a calling - an obligation - to evangelize. This does not mean that despite the efforts undertaken that some persons in the world have not received the message of the Gospel, or have been so limited in their ability to receive the message that they remain ignorant of the message through no fault of their own.
SJ:
I’m not sure what you mean. I’m not speaking of an error in maintaining the Deposit of Faith within the Church. I’m speaking of the real and practica difficulty involved in spreading the Gospel outside of the Church to those who have not heard it.
SJ:
Good to hear. But I think I’m still a little unclear on what exactly you had in mind regarding pagans and what would make them horrible people.
Peace,
Robert
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elvisman
Guest
It’s called, “free will”, my friend.
He loved us enough to give us that and didn’t force his love on us.
**He gives us the choice to accept him or to reject him.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Actually, there’s no indication that Jephtha (to spell the name correctly) actually slaughtered his daughter.
The traditional interpretation, both Jewish and Christian, is that she lived in a hermitage as a virgin consecrated to YHVH as a living sacrifice.
In any case, even if she were a victim slaughtered, this would be a unique (which means one of a kind, btw; there are not degrees of uniqueness) and terrible exception in Jewish practice.
We don’t take the exception and make a rule out of it.
And this does not change the fact that human sacrifice was (and remains) the rule in many pagan religions.
Who do you think the thugee are? Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom was not that far from the truth.
Or, for that matter suttee?
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Eleve
Guest
But how do you accept or reject somebody when you don’t know about him?
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