What's so difficult for the poor to move up to middle-class?

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Actually I said you are excusing their lack of achieving goals.
Do you recongize that there is a difference between reasons and excuses?
Basically “we don’t expect much of you.”
That would be a message from a helper or potential helper to a helpee or potential helpee.

Do you recognize the difference between one person giving another person a message (ie. working with them to help them change/achieve goals, and the internal experience of the person on the receiving end?

I don’t know who your talking about or what circumstances your talking about. If your talking about the governments entitlement programs I would agree that the recipients get a message of ‘we don’t expect much of you’ (actually it’s 'we expect almost nothing of you) or in some cases (we expect you to continue to be non functional and will continue to give you a check for being that way).

But I find it offensive when you make posts of this manner which seem to me to be directed towards any state of mind that I, myself, hold. Or any actions that I, myself, take when working with the poor, etc.

I was kind enough to ‘throw you a bone’ and include my position on entitlement programs when I could have been less cooperative and simply challenged your statements.

So it’s my suggestion that you either figure out correctly what my beliefs are or ASK me what they are. In all likelihood I would be considered MORE conservative than you on a liberal-conservative scale.

So I’m trying to be polite in requesting that you think more about who you are talking to when you make posts to me, seek to understand better who you are talking to when you make posts directed towards me, ASK me about my beliefs, etc and NOT make assuptions about me when posting about me, or simply refrain from making posts directed towards or about me.

I’m getting quite tired of people in this forum making false assumptions about my beliefs. I also feel that I’m doing a better job of behaving in an adult like fashion in my posting, using restraint, than several other posters in this forum and I am a new member here, only recently discovering my faith. Maybe it’s my understanding of logic where others might not have that type of understanding. I hope that, in fact, it is that and not something else.

God Bless,
Bill
 
Do you recongize that there is a difference between reasons and excuses?
Yes.
That would be a message from a helper or potential helper to a helpee or potential helpee.

Do you recognize the difference between one person giving another person a message (ie. working with them to help them change/achieve goals, and the internal experience of the person on the receiving end?

Bill
Do you?
 
Yes.

Do you?
Yes, I do. And I implement such on a daily basis and have done so for the past 20 years with adults from a variety of different groups that may typically be classified as ‘disadvantaged’.

Since you said that you work with children from the worst of circumstances (or words to that effect) and seem to question my understanding of helping people, why don’t you take some time and share with me the work that you do? Why don’t you share with me the basic backgrounds/circumstances of the children you work with and how you go about working with them with what I presume is a goal to improve their circumstances in life. Maybe you have a lot to teach me. You certainly seem to not think that I have the correct mindset and/or approach to my job. So since we both work in the ‘helping professions’ in one form or another please share with me so that I can learn from you that which you seem to think I do not know or that which do don’t do correctly.

If you would be so kind as to share with me how you go about working with the children you work with (I’m guessing to promote independence in one way or another). I’ve only worked with children in the context of working with their parents and that work has been extremely limited. Since I know nothing about the type of children you work with, or their age groups, it’s hard for me to even begin to understand what type of work you do or what the goals might be for the children. I’d rather not play guessing games and just hear from you what types of kids you work with and how you go about your job. This way I can understand what you do. It also might help me understand why you seem to take exception to the way I go about working with people (although I have no idea where you gathered your information about how I go about working with the people I work with).

Unless of course your hear to, in effect, sort of one line ‘troll’ me or something. I would hope that this is not the case, particularly on a Catholic Website.

Thanks in advance and God Bless,
Bill
 
In the last 4 years we have taken in 17 foster children. They ranged in age from one month to 10 years old and have suffered from physical, sexual, and mentally abuse and all manners of neglect. They have rope marks, burns, colostomy bags from being raped and are usually lice infested. We are currently adopting two of the children and have two others that will be going home soon. We’ll take a short break and then have two more foster children.

Before that we were totally wrapped up in the treatment of our older son as he suffered horribly from myoclonic astatic epilepsy. He began to improve and recover at age nine but remains on several medications and has a VNS implant. From age 4 to age 9 his seizures were extremely hard to control and on a bad day he would have more than 100, treatment involved years of special diets, four to ten different medications a day and physical therapy along with hundreds of doctor visits and hospitals stays. Recently in his math class they made a word problem to figure out how many pills he had taken since he was 4 years old (currently 13) - the “correct” answer was 45,990. He continues to recover (think stroke patient regaining the use of their limbs).

I am the 9th of 12 children and grew up working the fields as my father was an 8th grade educated share cropper. My wife is the 7th of 8 children in a similarly headed household. Both of us worked our way through college and doing “jobs Americans won’t do” and currently consider ourselves blessed with the opportunities we have enjoyed and find those that claim victim hood status as a birthright to be sad and selfish.
 
In the last 4 years we have taken in 17 foster children. They ranged in age from one month to 10 years old and have suffered from physical, sexual, and mentally abuse and all manners of neglect. They have rope marks, burns, colostomy bags from being raped and are usually lice infested. We are currently adopting two of the children and have two others that will be going home soon. We’ll take a short break and then have two more foster children.

Before that we were totally wrapped up in the treatment of our older son as he suffered horribly from myoclonic astatic epilepsy. He began to improve and recover at age nine but remains on several medications and has a VNS implant. From age 4 to age 9 his seizures were extremely hard to control and on a bad day he would have more than 100, treatment involved years of special diets, four to ten different medications a day and physical therapy along with hundreds of doctor visits and hospitals stays. Recently in his math class they made a word problem to figure out how many pills he had taken since he was 4 years old (currently 13) - the “correct” answer was 45,990. He continues to recover (think stroke patient regaining the use of their limbs).

I am the 9th of 12 children and grew up working the fields as my father was an 8th grade educated share cropper. My wife is the 7th of 8 children in a similarly headed household. Both of us worked our way through college and doing “jobs Americans won’t do” and currently consider ourselves blessed with the opportunities we have enjoyed and find those that claim victim hood status as a birthright to be sad and selfish.
So what do you do for your foster children - I mean apart from the obvious provision of things like food, clothing, shelter for them?
 
So what do you do for your foster children - I mean apart from the obvious provision of things like food, clothing, shelter for them?
What do you mean “what do you do”? Do you really need the duties of parenting explained to you? :confused:

We attend court hearings, we file as interested parties, we contact GALs, we report suspected continued abuse to court, we get CASA involved, we get them the medical care they need, we teach them to read and write, we give them a home that they can feel safe and secure in. We treat the lice and change their diapers, we seek out counseling services. We take them to church and we read them books at night. We work with the parents to continue the services we have started (EIPs in public school, Parents as Teachers, etc…) and teach them the basics in parenting skills. Some social workers seek us out for placement of a child, some social workers will do everything they can to prevent children from being placed with us. If the social workers is coasting in their job they don’t want anything to do with us.
 
In the last 4 years we have taken in 17 foster children. They ranged in age from one month to 10 years old and have suffered from physical, sexual, and mentally abuse and all manners of neglect. They have rope marks, burns, colostomy bags from being raped and are usually lice infested. We are currently adopting two of the children and have two others that will be going home soon. We’ll take a short break and then have two more foster children.

Before that we were totally wrapped up in the treatment of our older son as he suffered horribly from myoclonic astatic epilepsy. He began to improve and recover at age nine but remains on several medications and has a VNS implant. From age 4 to age 9 his seizures were extremely hard to control and on a bad day he would have more than 100, treatment involved years of special diets, four to ten different medications a day and physical therapy along with hundreds of doctor visits and hospitals stays. Recently in his math class they made a word problem to figure out how many pills he had taken since he was 4 years old (currently 13) - the “correct” answer was 45,990. He continues to recover (think stroke patient regaining the use of their limbs).
Do you know what a HUGE factor is when determining whether or not an abused/neglected child will ‘make it’ or not? The factor is whether or not, during their childhood, their formative years, they have an adult who shows them love and cares for them. I’m assuming that you do this.

When judging adults in poor circumstances maybe you should find out if they experienced love from an adult when they were a child, if they had an adult they could trust, before passing judgement on them and their life circumstances.

My world came to a crushing hault when my step-grandfather died when I was 12. He would visit every Sunday. I would sit by the window from the moment I woke up, even though he visited at exactly noon time each day, watching down the street to see his car come around the corner. I didn’t realize it at the time but I had the fantasy that he would ‘rescue’ me from my family that I lived with. When he died the hope of that fantasy ever materializing also died. And then I had no one. This is when things turned much worse for me even though I was physically abused from the age of 2 and sexually abused from the age of 6. Having my step grandfather in my life, even though it was only one afternoon a week, is what kept me hanging onto reality. When he died all hope died within me. I have no way to explain the impact it had on me that would make sense.

But it is common knowledge that a child having an adult they can depend on for love and trust is what most often makes or breaks them.

Just a thought.

God Bless,
Bill
 
Do you know what a HUGE factor is when determining whether or not an abused/neglected child will ‘make it’ or not? The factor is whether or not, during their childhood, their formative years, they have an adult who shows them love and cares for them. I’m assuming that you do this.

When judging adults in poor circumstances maybe you should find out if they experienced love from an adult when they were a child, if they had an adult they could trust, before passing judgement on them and their life circumstances.
Do you think my wife and I can do what we do without knowing this?
 
Did you have anyone who loved you or cared about you when you were growing up? Did the people who were raising you beat you, sexually molest you, have a chaotic home where the caregivers were drunk and ranting and fighting constantly, emotionally neglect you only giving you attention when they were abusing you or when you needed to go to the hospital, etc?

I doubt it. And I would suggest you don’t be so quick to generalize, or judge.
Charity, friend.

There are many paths that people walk in this world.

There are people for whom making poor life choices seems to be their greatest strength. I pray that they open themselves to the gift of Wisdom before their choices so irreparable harm.

There are people whose families have been on welfare for so long that the very thought of working to improve themselves is dismissed as folly. I cannot bring myself to hold these people blameless, but growing up in an environment where work is despised and handouts are expected is certainly disadvantageous.

There are people who work their way out of poverty perhaps to the middle class, perhaps beyond. This is a joyful thing. I pray that they remember to give back to those in the same state of need that they once were in.

I could go on, but you get the point.

It can be difficult for someone in middle class to open their hearts and wallets when they hear an anecdote about an entitled “welfare queen” with six kids from different fathers, receiving a monthly check, plus food stamps, plus free car seats, plus free breakfast and lunch at school, plus free medical care, plus free housing, yet somehow they have cable and an iPhone and a car with chrome rims.

This is where I struggle. Christ calls us to love everyone as our brothers and sisters, and calls on us to dispense charity, to give to those in need. I get that, but it can be hard to overcome the perception that people need to get off their butts.

I wish that I could come to a more conclusive point, but maybe it’s just reflective of how hard it is to address the issue of enduring poverty.

God Bless,
Alan
 
What do you mean “what do you do”? Do you really need the duties of parenting explained to you? :confused:

We attend court hearings, we file as interested parties, we contact GALs, we report suspected continued abuse to court, we get CASA involved, we get them the medical care they need, we teach them to read and write, we give them a home that they can feel safe and secure in. We treat the lice and change their diapers, we seek out counseling services. We take them to church and we read them books at night. We work with the parents to continue the services we have started (EIPs in public school, Parents as Teachers, etc…) and teach them the basics in parenting skills. Some social workers seek us out for placement of a child, some social workers will do everything they can to prevent children from being placed with us. If the social workers is coasting in their job they don’t want anything to do with us.
well, not being a parent nor ever having fostered a child myself, and given that the average parent doesn’t spend much time if any on things like court action and contact with social workers (certainly my parents never had to do either) it’s not an unreasonable question.

What about your approach to parenting, or your philosophy on parenting? You say that basically any child who finishes high school with good grades, doesn’t marry young but stays married and avoids addiction is set. With the number of kids you’ve fostered you’ve probably had to deal with all of the above. What did you say/do in these situations? And does it always work (ie has the child involved always improved their grades, waited for marriage, stayed married, avoided addiction). And in short - have they all ended up middle class as your logic indicates they must have done?
 
I grew up poor and moved to the middle class as an adult.

I have no high school education. I have no real skills except that I am a quick learner and a hard worker. I try NEVER to limit myself by saying: I couldn’t do that.

I moved from poor class to middle class through a series of ‘good luck’ events and because I refused to say; I can’t do it.

It started with little jobs, menial ‘poor’ people jobs. People liked me. They offered me positions in higher paying jobs and I took those positions and now I work two jobs and make an income that I can barely process some days. I’m not RICH. I’m not even WELL OFF but I make TWICE as much a year as my mother did… and she was raising three kids! :eek:

Why is it so difficult for the poor to move to middle class? Because the poor don’t think they CAN. Because they think they’re not good enough. Because they think they’re not smart enough. Because no one will give them a chance. Because they don’t want to? It’s a complicated question.

I wouldn’t be where I am if a couple of ‘rich’ people hadn’t decided they wanted me in their company. I would still be working minimum wage jobs and struggling to make ends meet. So I moved to middle class through luck and hard work. That’s all. 🤷
 
Non responsive reply snipped.

God Bless,
Alan
The answer must be “NO”, you were not subjected to severe abuse and neglect at the hands of your caregivers while growing up. Since you are a foster parent for children with a variety of significant problems, you get to see and experience first hand the negative impact this has had on them.

And if the children stay with you for significant lengths of time you also get to experience first hand how such a child, when they have an adult whom they can trust and shows them love, is a very significant aspect of learning to cope with the past trauma and heal.

So when looking at a group of adults and trying to determine what is wrong with them (below the surface situation such as homelessness) I would think that you would be a little more compassionate since you foster parent abused and neglected children. You must realize that many children don’t get such an opportunity to be taken into a home and shown trust and love.

Child services was called on my family when I was a child. This was the mid 70’s. My parents were given ample warning before any home investigation took place. They moved my wino grandmother who was verbally and physically abusive to me out of the house prior to the inspection. My mother also cleaned up the house. I was instructed by my parents not to say anything about my grandmother or anything about any abuse.

I remember the woman meeting with my mother in the kitchen for probably an hour. Then she asked if it was OK to speak with me. I said yes. She asked to look at my back. No strap marks, end of conversation. End of investigation. A short while later grandma was moved back into the house. I’m guessing that the system of child protective services is a bit more comprehensive nowadays than it was in the mid 70’s. Based on my behavior at school (not making eye contact with anyone, not speaking at all) should have raised someone’s eyebrow that something might be going on at home. Fortunately things are different today.

Moreover, when I was 12 I was taken to a child psychologist for ‘hitting my sister’. What actually happened is that we would fight over the TV remote control. I was a boy and was older than both my sisters so I would wind up with the remote control. However I never hit them. Actually I was the one who took the beating in the process of stealing the remote from them as they would kick me and punch me while I worked to grab it out of their grip. One day one of my sisters would up hitting her head on the corner of a table while we were fighting over the remote control.

So I see this psychologist. I tell him the best I can as a 12 year old that my mother is crazy (I had some insight into HER behavior by this point, she would bribe me with money and candy to hide the mail from my father before he got home from work, I eventually figured out she was putting the family in debt and hiding credit card bills from my father. This guy sent me to see someone else. He told me about the option to live with another family. I asked, crying, if I could meet them first. He said no, explained it didn’t work that way… I would go to such and such a place at first and then wind up at some families house. I remember crying in his office, asking if he would take me home and if I could live with him (he was one of the few people who showed me concern, affection, etc). He said that wasn’t an option. I went home with my parents and got into more trouble for spilling the beans to the child psychologist I was sent to under stupid and wrong circumstances. (of course what I did was wrong, but the climate of the household, and the ‘real’ abuse came from my parents and grandmother. It was mostly directed toward me.

And since I had no one to show me love and care I lost all hope, withdrew into a shell, and went deeper and deeper into that shell through my teenage years. By adulthood I was a basket case.

So people’s circumstances vary and the appropriate steps to take to assist people depend on understanding their circumstances rather than casting a broad net over large groups of people like ‘the homeless’. This is simply repeating neglect and is not helpful, particularly when done by people who resent them for living off of tax money.

It’s misplaced anger to be upset with the homeless, welfare people, etc. Would you get angry at people for showing up to collect $100 bills from some group handing out $100 bills? If they were told they were entitled to these $100 bills, would you be upset if they developed feelings of being entitled to these $100 bills? That is silly and misplaced animosity. If you want to be angry at someone/some group, be angry at the people handing out the $100 bills (that are taken from people without their consent) and re-distributed in this fashion. Getting angry at people showing up for goods and services helps no one and changes nothing for the better. And in all likelihood makes the situation WORSE.

I expect more from you since you are a foster parent of abused and neglected children. I will pray for you.

God Bless,
Bill
 
I expect more from you since you are a foster parent of abused and neglected children. I will pray for you.

God Bless,
Bill
Let me get this straight: you’re implying - with a huge load of snark - that because I’m not a foster parent of abused and neglected children, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on poverty?

Alan
 
Let me get this straight: you’re implying - with a huge load of snark - that because I’m not a foster parent of abused and neglected children, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on poverty?

Alan
?? That’s not what I got from his post.
 
Let me get this straight: you’re implying - with a huge load of snark - that because I’m not a foster parent of abused and neglected children, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on poverty?

Alan
I suggest you get a dictionary and look up these 2 words:

Imply
Infer

I am only responsible for what I say, not for what others might think I mean.

God Bless,
Bill
 
Let me get this straight: you’re implying - with a huge load of snark - that because I’m not a foster parent of abused and neglected children, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on poverty?

Alan
?? That’s not what I got from his post.
Actually, I got that since you weren’t abused, you wouldn’t understand and therefore shouldn’t have an opinion. (Or at least your opinion is wrong, because you weren’t abused.
 
Actually, I got that since you weren’t abused, you wouldn’t understand and therefore shouldn’t have an opinion. (Or at least your opinion is wrong, because you weren’t abused.
I’m really confused because it sounded to me like Alan WAS a foster parent of abused and neglected children and Bill knows a bit about poverty and suffering because he was abused and neglected.

I didn’t get that Bill was saying Alan has no right to an opinion, instead I hear him saying that you cannot expect one narrow view to fit every situation when it comes to poverty.

I suppose if I read further back these more recent posts will make more sense… 👍
 
Actually, I got that since you weren’t abused, you wouldn’t understand and therefore shouldn’t have an opinion. (Or at least your opinion is wrong, because you weren’t abused.
There was that, too. I frankly find it puzzling, since this thread has nothing to do with child abuse. Perhaps I’m wrong about that as well.
 
Please remember to keep posts on topic and to minimize personal revelations. This thread is now closed. Thank you to all who participated.
 
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