What's so threatening about traditionalism?

[Paul_Folbrecht]

For someone to claim that they have endured “Christ-like suffering”, over changes in the Liturgy is utterly ridiculous, and I stand by that. The changes in the Liturgy were made by the Church. To claim “Christ-like suffering” is an insult to the HMC.

You twisted the statement. You just lied by using quotation marks around a non-quote. The poster stated that he suffered and Christ suffered - not that his suffering was “Christ-like”. Who do you think you’re fooling? Do you really think nobody’s paying attention?

I don’t see any mainstream Catholics to be “eager for blood”. The posts on this forum make it pretty clear that it’s the other way around.

Mirror handy?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

My rhetoric isn’t any more “tired” or irrelevant, than the endless threads and posts denigrating the Church.

But it is, because you post nothing of substance and nothing new. You apparently got done saying everything substantive you had to say - that criticizing the new Mass or any clerics at any time is wrong. There has been nothing new since, and that is pretty close to abject fact.

Please correct me with details.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

So, you’re saying that we have “levels” of Catholicism? I’d love to see a Church document that verifies this. So, you’re a black-belt, and I’m a green-belt, or something to that effect? I think you just made my point for me, thanks.

So, you’re putting (very silly) words in my mouth?

I said, yes, of course, there are bad Catholic, good Catholics, and great Catholics, which is, in fact, supported by a myriad of Church statements and is about as close to bare-bones common sense as you can get.

Again, you make my point for me. As a self-proclaimed “traditionalist”, you lump everyone else into a group that holds beliefs that are against the Church.

Actually, I’m not really a Traditionalist, and attend the NO more often than TLM, as I’ve told you several times.

Perhaps for the same reasons that the constant denigration of Mass form, Popes, Bishops, and Priests are allowed to continue. I have been “called out” as well. So, fair is fair.

Eye for an eye, eh?

The difference is the lack of substance and lack of logic on your end.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Seriously, I do not know what to do.

It doesn’t seem right that there should be no ‘accounting’ in a sense regarding the posting of ‘mistaken accusations’. . .and yet, I don’t want to prolong an eternal, “You’re wrong”, “No, you”, “Did not”, “Did too” sort of post/counterpost.

Heaven only knows that the constant chafing and barrages wreak havoc on one’s patience and charity and I am loathe to subject myself to such things knowing that it could lead me into being unkind and uncharitable.

Sadly, I think that we have gotten the answer that we desperately hoped was **not **the answer we’d get.

For whatever reason, people feel threatened, about all sorts of things. . .often with no reason whatsoever except their own ‘gut feeling’ or their own mistaken ideas.

And sometimes. . .there just isn’t anything a person can do about the mistaken ideas of another poster.

All they can do if the situation persists is to say a prayer for themselves (for patience and charity), for others (likewise), step away and leave it to the Lord as to whether there will be ‘another day’. . . or not. . .to address things.

I guess sometimes that the most charitable thing of all to do in a situation like this. . .is to leave for the night with a blessing, and a prayer, and a request to our Lord to 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation. . .but deliver us from evil." Amen.

 

[SanJudas]

Here again, a totally uncalled for sarcastic remark.

In that case, I apologize. No sarcasm was intended. I was sincere. It seems that I directed my remarks against the wrong person, but I assure you that some posters do seem to have that attitude.

And it seemed when NO people tried to say that yes, there were abuses, but the NO itself was not the problem, they were dogpiled. This forum doesn’t seem to be as much about the preference for the TLM as it is a condemnation of the NO.

I’ve never seen any poster who honestly tried to have a discussion about the relative merits of the Pauline vs. the Tridentine Mass get “dogpiled.” Please read some of the other posts by some of these people we’re debating with and you’ll see that their intentions are less than honorable.

Granted, there are abuses. Apparently in some parts of the country “many abuses”. But that is not the fault of the NO. That is the fault of “people.”

I won’t argue with that. Our argument is that the newer liturgy seems to allow more room for abuse than the older one did. In these troubling times, we need to tighten up on opportunities for abuse, not loosen up on them.

I prefer the NO. That does not make me a second-class Catholic and that’s what I have been made to feel.

I hope no one here has implied that you are a second-class Catholic. If you were, you probably wouldn’t even look twice at a forum titled, “Traditional Catholicism.”

I have never, ever implied that I thought anyone on here was a sedevacantist.

As I said, I seem to have jumped to conclusions about that one. I guess I’ve gotten used to making that assumption based on some previous posters’ comments abouts “schismatics” and such.

Perhaps an NO person came on here to learn something about the TLM because they are interested in it. It wouldn’t be a welcome introduction. It would be almost the same as if my husband had gone to the “Inquiry” class and they had dumped all over him for his “inadequate” protestant background and told him he was a “second-class” Christian and how wrong he had been. You might think that but why on God’s earth would you say that? That is not the way Catholics welcome people into the Church.

You say this is a subforum about traditional practices and liturgy. No…it isn’t. It’s just a place for TLM and NO people to hurt each other. I tried to reach out tonight. I will no longer participate in this. It’s an embarrasment. I will tell my husband to look elsewhere for additional information.

In all truth, I wouldn’t recommend a new convert or revert to visit this subforum. I recognize that it could be a frustrating and maybe even frightening experience, kind of like reading the list of all of the ingredients on your shampoo bottle. It would probably make you never want to wash your hair again!

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I guess sometimes that the most charitable thing of all to do in a situation like this. . .is to leave for the night with a blessing, and a prayer, and a request to our Lord to 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation. . .but deliver us from evil." Amen.

Thanks for the post. We needed this here and I was thinking the same thing.

I do not enjoy this type of argument - it is not debate. It disrupts personal peace and is non-productive. (However, I think the replies made here and elsewhere to the anti-Tridentine echelon are a necessity.)

Tomorrow, E., I am going to say a whole rosary for your intentions & for understanding between ‘us’.

 

[moosears]

Here again, a totally uncalled for sarcastic remark.

San Judas, I’ll tell you why I’m on here. I came on the thread titled “Traditional” innocently enough because I thought it would be educational. I had been away many, many years and finally came home. Now my husband is getting ready to start RCIA. and I thought it might be interesting for him.

It was a mistake. I was shocked. I finally jumped into the fray because I felt the NO and people who attend it were being attacked. I have absolutely no problem with those who prefer the TLM, but I personally felt after reading a lot of posts that many of you who prefer the TLM look down on those who prefer the NO. And it seemed when NO people tried to say that yes, there were abuses, but the NO itself was not the problem, they were dogpiled. This forum doesn’t seem to be as much about the preference for the TLM as it is a condemnation of the NO.

Granted, there are abuses. Apparently in some parts of the country “many abuses”. But that is not the fault of the NO. That is the fault of “people.”

I apologize to the few people on here who seem to have a respect for both forms.

I prefer the NO. That does not make me a second-class Catholic and that’s what I have been made to feel.

I have never, ever implied that I thought anyone on here was a sedevacantist.

Perhaps an NO person came on here to learn something about the TLM because they are interested in it. It wouldn’t be a welcome introduction. It would be almost the same as if my husband had gone to the “Inquiry” class and they had dumped all over him for his “inadequate” protestant background and told him he was a “second-class” Christian and how wrong he had been. You might think that but why on God’s earth would you say that? That is not the way Catholics welcome people into the Church.

You say this is a subforum about traditional practices and liturgy. No…it isn’t. It’s just a place for TLM and NO people to hurt each other. I tried to reach out tonight. I will no longer participate in this. It’s an embarrasment. I will tell my husband to look elsewhere for additional information.

Speaking for myself ,who originally converted from the protestant religions to the sedevacante church and has now found the True Church of Jesus Christ within the Roman Catholic Church united to the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. I think you have hit the nail right on the head BSHoop96.

These Traditional forums are a den of lions lying in wait to waylay anyone who does not bow down to their way of thinking. Whenever someone opposes, they rally the crowds to cry out “crucify him!, crucify him!” This is the exact mentality that drove me away from them. They follow the letter of the law but not it’s spirit. Strain a gnat and swallow a camel.

They accuse people of being swollen with sinful pride and they cannot even remove the beam from their own eyes. Jesus Himself, I am sure, is ashamed. They are the blind leading the blind. That is why I left them and will have nothing to do with those who rail against their brothers and sisters who are trying to develop their spiritual lives by attending the Mass of their choice even if it is the OF.

There are enough people outside of the Church who are trying to tear it down. But the enemy is much more cunning than we and now he has succeeded in dividing the House of God, knowing full well that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Please find it in your hearts to at least not insult each other or any part of the Church. Instead of spending so much time on these threads forcing our point of view we could make so much more progress toward unity if we all get off line and just pray for the reform that the Church needs. Threats, insults, sarcasm? Sure they can be confessed and forgiven but the habit must be broken and charity is the greatest of virtues. God bless everyone and the peace of Christ be with you always! Please pray for me.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Moosears…Another example of that post-concilliar charity? Everybody is juuuust fine, muslims, jews, voodoos, but traditional Catholics…A den of lions… Very charitable.

 

[Walking_Home]

Speaking for myself ,who originally converted from the protestant religions to the sedevacante church and has now found the True Church of Jesus Christ within the Roman Catholic Church united to the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. I think you have hit the nail right on the head BSHoop96.

These Traditional forums are a den of lions lying in wait to waylay anyone who does not bow down to their way of thinking. Whenever someone opposes, they rally the crowds to cry out “crucify him!, crucify him!” This is the exact mentality that drove me away from them. They follow the letter of the law but not it’s spirit. Strain a gnat and swallow a camel.

They accuse people of being swollen with sinful pride and they cannot even remove the beam from their own eyes. Jesus Himself, I am sure, is ashamed. They are the blind leading the blind. That is why I left them and will have nothing to do with those who rail against their brothers and sisters who are trying to develop their spiritual lives by attending the Mass of their choice even if it is the OF.

There are enough people outside of the Church who are trying to tear it down. But the enemy is much more cunning than we and now he has succeeded in dividing the House of God, knowing full well that a house divided against itself cannot stand. **Please find it in your hearts to at least not insult each other **or any part of the Church. Instead of spending so much time on these threads forcing our point of view we could make so much more progress toward unity if we all get off line and just pray for the reform that the Church needs. Threats, insults, sarcasm? Sure they can be confessed and forgiven but the habit must be broken and charity is the greatest of virtues. God bless everyone and the peace of Christ be with you always! Please pray for me.

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You mean like refering to the Traditional forum as a den of lions etc, etc. It seems you know not of what you speak.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

“Trying to imitate Christ”, is a long way from “equating yourself with Christ”.

I was commenting on this quote:

Christ Himself was ridiculed and calumniated for speaking the truth, and so too are the Traditionalists.

If you can’t see the self-righteous arrogance in such a comment, there is nothing further for us to discuss.

For real? So if St. Paul says to the people of his little church, “As Christ was persecuted, so too do the pagans persecute us,” he’s being self-righteous and arrogant.

 

[John_Higgins]

Let me slip in here and dare to answer the OP’s question…

Q: What’s so threatening about traditionalism?

A: Triumphalism.

John

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

Let me slip in here and dare to answer the OP’s question…

Q: What’s so threatening about traditionalism?

A: Triumphalism.

John

I see this as kind of a non-statement. Yeah, we know that traditionalists think that the EF is “better” than the OF in many ways. The question is: why is this threatening?

 

[moosears]

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You mean like referring to the Traditional forum as a den of lions etc, etc. It seems you know not of what you speak.

Thank you Walking Home for bringing that to my attention. If you are not one of the lions then there is no problem. If you are one of the lions then shame on you. Please continue to pray for me!

 

[Walking_Home]

Thank you Walking Home for bringing that to my attention. If you are not one of the lions then there is no problem. If you are one of the lions then shame on you. Please continue to pray for me!

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Very strange —this post is not your original post (which I read)—you came back to change it. I guess the drive to still throw a jab was to strong.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
You mean like referring to the Traditional forum as a den of lions etc, etc. It seems you know not of what you speak.

Thank you Walking Home for bringing that to my attention. If you are not one of the lions then there is no problem. If you are one of the lions then shame on you. Please continue to pray for me!

quote=moosears
Please find it in your hearts to at least not insult each other​

By the way by your response above-- It seems you know not of what you speak–still stands.

 

[moosears]

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Very strange —this post is not your original post (which I read)—you came back to change it. I guess the drive to still throw a jab was to strong.

No so-called JAB intended sir. I started to make an apology for sounding inflammatory when, I realized that the statement I made was not directed across the board to ALL traditionalists on these forums but only the piranhas who engage in tearing to shreds those. who have varying opinions about tradition. They should know very well who they are and their conscience should call them on it. It sometimes looks like the Spanish Inquisition on these forums and while I have no doubt that the vitriol is spewed from both sides, I have noticed a lot here lately, more gangs of traditionalists, like vigilantes roasting their prey over the fire in sheer ecstacy quite a bit. I just see no point in it. This certainly must detract from the spiritual aspect of our holy faith. If you were offended by the comment then I suppose it is because you engage in this kind of activity. If you do not engage in it, and I certainly have no reason to think you do, then why the jab back at me for stating what is obvious to everyone except the ones who are engaging in it? I know the comment was insulting to those who engage in the activity described above. I surely meant no offense to you unless you are part of this group. I would’ve said the same thing to a group of non-traditionalists under the same circumstances but I have yet to see that happening. I am sure it will occur if I hang around on these forums long enough.
Please pray for me as I will for you and everyone on these forums.
I am most assured that by the time I check back on this thread I will have been drawn and quartered. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

 

[eelpis]

No so-called JAB intended sir. I started to make an apology for sounding inflammatory when, I realized that the statement I made was not directed across the board to ALL traditionalists on these forums but only the piranhas who engage in tearing to shreds those. who have varying opinions about tradition. They should know very well who they are and their conscience should call them on it. It sometimes looks like the Spanish Inquisition on these forums and while I have no doubt that the vitriol is spewed from both sides, I have noticed a lot here lately, more gangs of traditionalists, like vigilantes roasting their prey over the fire in sheer ecstacy quite a bit. I just see no point in it. This certainly must detract from the spiritual aspect of our holy faith. If you were offended by the comment then I suppose it is because you engage in this kind of activity. If you do not engage in it, and I certainly have no reason to think you do, then why the jab back at me for stating what is obvious to everyone except the ones who are engaging in it? I know the comment was insulting to those who engage in the activity described above. I surely meant no offense to you unless you are part of this group. I would’ve said the same thing to a group of non-traditionalists under the same circumstances but I have yet to see that happening. I am sure it will occur if I hang around on these forums long enough.
Please pray for me as I will for you and everyone on these forums.
I am most assured that by the time I check back on this thread I will have been drawn and quartered. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Do not be afraid. Persecutions are bound to come if you are sincere in your struggle for holiness. The worst are those perpetrated by your brothers and sisters in Christ. We are all sinners and sometimes we act as instruments of the devil. Keep praying and do not lose heart.

 

[ethelzguy]

I see this as kind of a non-statement. Yeah, we know that traditionalists think that the EF is “better” than the OF in many ways. The question is: why is this threatening?

Becasue of the self-proclaimed “superiority” that tends to come with it.

In this thread, there have been posts that link “traditionalism” to suffering and persecution. To claim that someone has suffered persecution at the hands of the Church over matters of Liturgy defies faith and obedience to the Church.

 

[Walking_Home]

No so-called JAB intended sir. I started to make an apology for sounding inflammatory when, I realized that the statement I made was not directed across the board to ALL traditionalists on these forums but only** the piranhas** who engage in tearing to shreds those. who have varying opinions about tradition. They should know very well who they are and their conscience should call them on it. It sometimes looks like the Spanish Inquisition on these forums and while I have no doubt that the vitriol is spewed from both sides, I have noticed a lot here lately, more gangs of traditionalists, **like vigilantes roasting their prey over the fire in sheer ecstacy **quite a bit. I just see no point in it. This certainly must detract from the spiritual aspect of our holy faith. If you were offended by the comment then I suppose it is because you engage in this kind of activity. If you do not engage in it, and I certainly have no reason to think you do, then why the jab back at me for stating what is obvious to everyone except the ones who are engaging in it? I know the comment was insulting to those who engage in the activity described above. I surely meant no offense to you unless you are part of this group. I would’ve said the same thing to a group of non-traditionalists under the same circumstances but I have yet to see that happening. I am sure it will occur if I hang around on these forums long enough.
Please pray for me as I will for you and everyone on these forums.
I am most assured that by the time I check back on this thread I will have been drawn and quartered. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

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Now who could it have been that made the statement below. Oops --that was you wasn’t it. I guess its alright for you to throw out accusations of “lions den”–“piranha” etc. – and expect no one to be insulted. It seems as case of “do as I say --not as I do”.

And really --it is quite unbecoming to try and pass yourself of as a martyr —when you reflect the same type of characteristics --you accuse others off.

Please find it in your hearts to at least not insult each other

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Becasue of the self-proclaimed “superiority” that tends to come with it.

In this thread, there have been posts that link “traditionalism” to suffering and persecution. To claim that someone has suffered persecution at the hands of the Church over matters of Liturgy defies faith and obedience to the Church.

You just never quit. This statement is completely preposterous and I have to conclude you know next to nothing about Church history to have made it. Your extremely simplistic outlook seems to be the root of the problem.

So, nobody suffered at all under the Arian bishops? Nobody suffered in the least in any of the major heretical waves that overtook the Church at any time?

(Note, of course, the Church Herself has never buckled under heresy, as she has never taught error, but individual clerics have erred. You have either not the ability to tell the difference between The Church and The People in the Church or your animosity for the causes you rave against induces myopia. This is a very basic distinction!)

And, for one more, nobody at all suffered under the mass altar-crushing and tabernacle-breakings that occurred when many uninformed or heretical bishops went forth to implement a “requirement” of the Council that never existed?

I’m sorry, E, but you have become little more than a troll here.