What's the best way to explain the veneration of Mary to a Protestant?

[KathleenGee]

God created us good.

Mary was conceived without sin. I understand what you are getting at saying she asked a bad question. I think it more reflective of human nature…but she a woman of perfect faith. So there was grace in her question, rather than framing it as bad.

 

[fred_conty]

We venerate all mothers when we have mother’s day.

We should especially venerate Mary the mother of Jesus.

Jesus did, why shouldn’t we?

 

[JonNC]

We venerate all mothers when we have mother’s day.

We should especially venerate Mary the mother of Jesus.

Jesus did, why shouldn’t we?

This is true, Amen. I also believe that we should be respectful of the ways we each honor her (even if it is different), so long as it does no harm to the Gospel.

“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” - Luther

Jon

 

[joe370]

Doxiemom;10457743]kneeling down in front of any statue in prayer or adoration is seen as idol worship. They will say you are breaking a commandment. As a catholic you can understand the importance given to breaking commandments.

And every protestant family member or friend, every Christmas has a Nativity set (little statues of Mary, Joseph and Jesus…in their front yard or under their Christmas tree… LOL…As a former non-Catholic, I am fully aware of the anti-Catholic brainwashing that goes on, something you do not embrace, based on what you said below:

You and i know that the statue itself is not what is worshipped. I will accept that. HOWEVER, there are some srange practices that go on, carry-overs from the Old World traditions, that I personally have witnessed or asked to take part in that smacks of idolatry.
I know that these things are not part of the catholic faith, but to an outsider who has no idea it isn’t , it will be very hard to convince othrwise as it is pervasive in some circles.

As for me, I see these things as great pieces of art, offerings of such, as gifts back to our God. A good use for the talents given to us by our Creator. i have been known to kneel down in front of many a catholic crucifix in a catholic church and i will do it again. To focus on our Lord’s suffering, by this solid image, does bring me closer to Him in prayer.

As for Mary, few will be able to wrap their minds around what you write. I can’t but i will and can accept that you are not worshipping her. But, there are some catholics who go overboard with Mary and have put the Trinity God on the back burner.

Why any sane person would worship the creature instead of the creator, or along with the creator, is beyond me… Regarding those Catholics who go overboard with Mary and put the Trinity God on the back burner: they should either conform to the church’s teaching or be asked to leave, amicably of course. You bring up a perfect example as to why Jesus’ church has the authority, as opposed to each and every Christian via scripture alone, be he/she Catholic or non-Catholic!

 

[ufamtobie]

Mary requested a good thing for a bad reason. Christ did end up doing what she asked, but it was for a different, and good, reason.

Bran Stark,

Listen to your quote above, you are not making sense, you are contradicting yourself and it looks silly “Mary requested a good thing for a bad reason”. A good thing for a bad reason Please. Mary is Full of Grace, therefore She can do no wrong, Like for one, contradicting Herself, like you have here.

Do you really think Mary was rebuked because Jesus Christ called His Mother “Woman”? No!

So then what about when Jesus Was dying on the Cross He also used the word “Woman” to His Mother, was that a rebuke to Her here as well? No!

(John 19: 26,27) When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother:** Woman,** behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy Mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

Bran Stark, Jesus Christ while suffering on the Cross used both Woman and Mother, so then why did He Start out with the word “WOMAN” and then used the word “MOTHER” to John?

The Woman signifies Mary’s role, Genesis 3: 15 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel.

Bran Stark, Do you as well have enmity between THEE and the WOMAN aka Virgin Mary Mentioned in (Genesis 3:15) What seed do you belong to? It sure seem like you don’t belong to the WOMAN’S because surly you believe that the use of the word WOMAN is a rebuke, Wow I hate to be in your shoes. Bran be like John and take Mary into your house/heart.

Bran Stark Genesis mentioned Woman was that a Rebuke as well? lol

Ufam Tobie

 

[joe370]

Mary requested a good thing for a bad reason. Christ did end up doing what she asked, but it was for a different, and good, reason.

Poor Mary. She just cannot catch a break from many (not all) non-Catholics…

 

[KathleenGee]

And she was the very place Christ entered into the world…why her???

 

[Bran_Stark]

So you say. Where do Scripture and/or Sacred Tradition list, in that passage, that Mary was asking for a ‘bad reason’, that the term ‘woman’ was a rebuke, and that Christ 'did what she asked for a different and ‘good’ reason and what was it?

You are really stretching it, hon. Why is it so important to you to think that Christ ‘had to’ rebuke His mother?

I don’t know about “important”; my faith doesn’t exactly stand or fall based on the interpretation of this particular passage. And the sinlessness of Mary is neither confirmed nor denied by the absence of a “rebuke” here, so I don’t really have a deep stake in the answer. I’m simply sharing my understanding of the Miracle at Cana - one which seems to have some Catholic tradition behind it.

Bran Stark,

Listen to your quote above, you are not making sense, you are contradicting yourself and it looks silly “Mary requested a good thing for a bad reason”. A good thing for a bad reason Please. Mary is Full of Grace, therefore She can do no wrong, Like for one, contradicting Herself, like you have here.

Do you really deny that it’s possible to do a good thing for a bad reason? I think such an event is quite a common occurrence. For example, alms-giving is certainly a good thing, but think about how sternly Our Lord warns against doing it publicly to enhance your reputation. And Mary is indeed full of grace, yes, but I don’t think perfection is an inescapable consequence of that.

Do you really think Mary was rebuked because Jesus Christ called His Mother “Woman”? No!

So then what about when Jesus Was dying on the Cross He also used the word “Woman” to His Mother, was that a rebuke to Her here as well? No!

(John 19: 26,27) When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother:** Woman,** behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy Mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

Bran Stark, Jesus Christ while suffering on the Cross used both Woman and Mother, so then why did He Start out with the word “WOMAN” and then used the word “MOTHER” to John?

The Woman signifies Mary’s role, Genesis 3: 15 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel.

Bran Stark, Do you as well have enmity between THEE and the WOMAN aka Virgin Mary Mentioned in (Genesis 3:15) What seed do you belong to? It sure seem like you don’t belong to the WOMAN’S because surly you believe that the use of the word WOMAN is a rebuke, Wow I hate to be in your shoes. Bran be like John and take Mary into your house/heart.

Bran Stark Genesis mentioned Woman was that a Rebuke as well? lol

Ufam Tobie

No, I do NOT think that the word “woman” was used in a derogatory way here. I conclude that it was a rebuke based on situation, not vocabulary. As for taking Mary into my house and heart, well I daresay that I already have. The traditional Benedictine office has been my prayer book of choice lately, and the holy Mother of God is frequently invoked therein. So please, don’t make any unwarranted assumptions… no pun intended.

Poor Mary. She just cannot catch a break from many (not all) non-Catholics…

“Poor Mary”? Really? I don’t think the Blessed Theotokas is exactly having her honour besmirched here. She is the sublimest creation of God, far greater than myself. Any faults she may have had on earth do not negate this. And besides, Our Lady is doubtless a very humble person. I don’t think she cares too much about defending her own personal glory.

 

[joe370]

Bran Stark
“Poor Mary”? Really? I don’t think the Blessed Theotokas is exactly having her honour besmirched here. She is the sublimest creation of God, far greater than myself. Any faults she may have had on earth do not negate this. And besides, Our Lady is doubtless a very humble person. I don’t think she cares too much about defending her own personal glory.

Oh, OK, my bad brother.

 

[fred_conty]

If I worshiped Mary, then I would be anathema since the catholic church teaches the first commandment. I would not be allowed to receive communion and I would not go to heaven when I die.

I don’t know if it can get any stronger than that, that catholics may not and can not worship Mary.

 

[KathleenGee]

Apostolic faith is very highly developed, both theologically, intellectually, philosophically…this going back to ancient times around the 100’s and forward, spiritually, emotionally.

Do you really think Catholics believe in worshipping statues??? Do you think we are all not aware we are practicing idolatry???

The pagans who converted through Constantine’s legalizing Christianity and making Sunday a day of rest were about 1 million. They brought in their own neutral customs…of genuflecting and imaging deity and holy people. That did not make them paganizing Christianity.

Idolatry is worshipping false gods…reflecting a breaking away of faith from the one true God, when in fact, these ancient pagans were converting to Christianity and bringing the good of their former beliefs with them into the Church to demonstrate their own unique charism to the culture of the Church.

 

[joe370]

If I worshiped Mary, then I would be anathema since the catholic church teaches the first commandment. I would not be allowed to receive communion and I would not go to heaven when I die.

I don’t know if it can get any stronger than that, that catholics may not and can not worship Mary.

 

[joe370]

Apostolic faith is very highly developed, both theologically, intellectually, philosophically…this going back to ancient times around the 100’s and forward, spiritually, emotionally.

Do you really think Catholics believe in worshipping statues??? Do you think we are all not aware we are practicing idolatry???

The pagans who converted through Constantine’s legalizing Christianity and making Sunday a day of rest were about 1 million. They brought in their own neutral customs…of genuflecting and imaging deity and holy people. That did not make them paganizing Christianity.

Idolatry is worshipping false gods…reflecting a breaking away of faith from the one true God, when in fact, these ancient pagans were converting to Christianity and bringing the good of their former beliefs with them into the Church to demonstrate their own unique charism to the culture of the Church.

To be honest, I have never met any non-Catholics here at CAF that suggested Marian worship. That sort of silliness is relegated to anti-Catholics…

 

[KathleenGee]

Those sects that accuse us so also are deficient in reason and education. And they deliberately mislead followers by withholding truth in history, coming across that on some other forums.

Likewise you cannot reason with them, nor can other Protestants. Their behavior contributes alot to Hollywood movies and various stereotypes making a mockery out of Christianity. We have to pray for them to come to the light of Christ.

I would also add here that their followers are so indoctrinated and subsequently alienated by outward Catholic practices, that they are too afraid to even open up to seek the truth for themselves. The fact that these sects have to point to the Catholic Church to affirm themselves, instead of possessing the full deposit of faith is a red flag right there.

Truth sets us free.

 

[joe370]

Those sects that accuse us so also are deficient in reason and education. And they deliberately mislead followers by withholding truth in history, coming across that on some other forums.

Likewise you cannot reason with them, nor can other Protestants. Their behavior contributes alot to Hollywood movies making a mockery out of Christianity. We have to pray for them to come to the light of Christ.

You are right on all counts…:sad_yes:

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t know about “important”; my faith doesn’t exactly stand or fall based on the interpretation of this particular passage. And the sinlessness of Mary is neither confirmed nor denied by the absence of a “rebuke” here, so I don’t really have a deep stake in the answer. I’m simply sharing my understanding of the Miracle at Cana - one which seems to have some Catholic tradition behind it.

In other word, you are saying that the ‘rebuke’ does not make any difference and you agree that Mary’s petition to Jesus did (for him to perform the miracle).