What's the big deal with Masses in Latin?

[Freeway4321]

Chalice:

It also turned many people so off that they sat in the pews praying the rosary…

One of the reasons why Vat-II was called, and why a reform of the Liturgy just like Tradition has always done with the Tridentine would of been nice.

It is said that Catholics in poor countries have there priorities straight and most of them know Latin… quite well. This isn’t surprising nor is it surprising that those (in particular) the states started to decline with there Latin. The two reasons are as followed… Latin wasn’t taught as much as it once was, and those who didn’t care to learn Latin sat to the side and did there own thing.

It doesn’t make much sense. You have your minimalist Catholics who say “Well, in the NO we have The Holy Eucharist”. Why didn’t those who were praying there Rosary and other private devotions take the same attitude with the Tridentine? Chances are they probablly didn’t want to be there in the first place, and we didn’t have problems with those who wanted to be there and wanted to learn.

This is my speculation.

And I am a pretty dumb fellow, yet I know far more Latin than I ever thought I would know. So any excuse about it being too hard is more like “I don’t care to learn it”.

I have also said before… If we had the Saturday Liturgy that fullfills your sunday obligation in the vernacular and the High mass on Sunday morning, or a High mass in the vernacular after or before (whatever) the Latin mass, I would see little problem in this besides lazyness. Simply because it would give people an excuse to not learn Latin. As if we need more of those…

Either way, the beauty of the Tridentine Latin Mass should be with the church, and far more prominent.

I am not one to state a very good case for it, for said reasons, which is why I linked “the 20th Century Doctor of the Church.” Dietrich von Hildebrand to do this.

 

[MikeWM]

We have a Latin (Novus Ordo) mass every Sunday afternoon at my church. I go maybe once a month. The amount of Latin used depends on the priest, but is usually pretty much the whole mass apart from the readings and prayer of the faithful (and the homily

I quite like it, and I’m trying to learn the main Latin prayers. I feel blessed that I have the option of going to mass in Latin or in English.

Mike

 

[harinkj]

Seeing how many posts are on this thread after so short a period of time shows that the Latin Mass is important to many people.

I feel that the Novus Ordo Mass in the vernacular and the Tridnetine Latin Mass are two different religious experiences. The Novus Ordo in the vernacular is an emotional experience somewhat like a charismatic experince while the Tridentine Latin Mass is a mystical experince. I have never been to a Novus Ordo Latin Mass so I don’t know where it falls. I do have a Novus Ordo Latin Missal.

I feel both Masses should be available, although i only attend the Tridentine myself.

Kathie :bowdown:

 

[DaMaMaXiMuS]

Does anyone have any responses to the questions posed by “rwoehmke”? I thought they were very good questions.

Also I remember a scripture in 1st Corinthians 14:1-19 that talked about speaking in different languages (tongues) and how someone needs to interpret so that the church receives edification. Otherwise, the person speaking in tongues will be speaking into the air.

Wouldn’t this be a lesson for the church today? It’s more important that people receive edification than for them to have to learn Latin?

And I realize that the above scripture probably has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but I thought it could still lend some help to the discussion.

 

[Freeway4321]

rwoehmke:

I am struggling with some items from the discussion thus far.

1. Jesus spoke Aramaic as did his disciples. I expect the very first liturgical celibrations including the Last Supper would have been in Aramaic.
2. The idea that the purpose of the Mass is primarily something we give to God. While it is a sacrifice offered to God and pleasing to Him, it would seem that its natural result is more for our building up and formation in Christ, rather than something that primarily benefits God. In other words the creature is by nature benefitted by recognizing and worshipping his creator
3. If it is so difficult to render the Latin Mass into English, doesn’t it naturally follow that unless one understands and can think in Latin, the English translation of the Latin of the Tridentine Mass found in the Missal must of necessity be lacking? Then would it not be so that the “power and awe” are not so much something intellectual as emotional in nature?

1. Yes. I don’t know who would refute such a thing… I don’t know where you want to go with that. But anyone you thinks the first liturgical celebration was in latin is a fool (which I hope did not spark this comment). Pope Innocent I (?-417) in one of his letters, shows that Latin was being used in the liturgy. It is one of the earliest resources we have.
2. The mass is worship dictated by our Lord. It is supposed to be heaven and earth. Not a place where the modern mind stays busy by participating and getting restless over the few and far between times where there is silence in the NO.

Which is why the tradition of the Tridentine Latin Mass is so important.

I gave a far to simple description of what the mass is. The reason? There is plenty of beautiful material you can find all over the interent describing the beauty & meaning of mass. I linked an article, I will ask once again that someone take the time to read it.

1. This has validity. But I have read the whole 1962 Ordinary of the Tridentine mass. And trust me, the beauty is there. Does it add up to it being said in latin and understanding the fullness of it (since it was intended to be said in latin?) I don’t know.

I can tell you it is like poetry, it’s beauty cannot be covered up simply because it is said in the vernacular.

 

[palmas85]

Chalice:

It also turned many people so off that they sat in the pews praying the rosary…

The people did not pray the Rosary because they were turned off by the Latin Mass. At least most of them didn’t. In many missals of the period, and I have a large collection of them, it was reccommended that during parts of the Mass it was approproate to pray the Rosary or other prayers while the Priest was involved in saying the prayers he alone said. Some missals even suggested which prayers to say during this time.

Also it was not uncommon in previous years for many people to be illiterate and unable to follow the Mass in the Missals. The Rosary gave them a way to participate fully.

And in closing, many people, myself included, took and continue take their Rosaries to Mass and finger them without saying any of the prayers. Being a sacramental object I feel it brings me a bit closer to Jesus Christ.

 

[palmas85]

rwoehmke:

I am struggling with some items from the discussion thus far.

1. Jesus spoke Aramaic as did his disciples. I expect the very first liturgical celibrations including the Last Supper would have been in Aramaic.
2. The idea that the purpose of the Mass is primarily something we give to God. While it is a sacrifice offered to God and pleasing to Him, it would seem that its natural result is more for our building up and formation in Christ, rather than something that primarily benefits God. In other words the creature is by nature benefitted by recognizing and worshipping his creator
3. If it is so difficult to render the Latin Mass into English, doesn’t it naturally follow that unless one understands and can think in Latin, the English translation of the Latin of the Tridentine Mass found in the Missal must of necessity be lacking? Then would it not be so that the “power and awe” are not so much something intellectual as emotional in nature?

I’ll try this one and see what happens

1 As I recall there were several major languages spoken in the area and numerous dialects. In fact if I am not mistaken the dialect spoken around Nazareth was particularly difficult for many to understand. It led to them being thought of as a kind of hillbillies or uneducated rubes for lack of a better word.

Latin, Aramaic Hebrew and Greek probably would have been the big languages in the area… Since the entire area was international in nature, trade routes and all, I believe the most common widely spoken language would probably have been some form of Greek, with government business in Latin. I don’t think Hebrew was widely spoken at that time except in religious services. Aramaic was but one of many dialects there. Since the Mass still contains the Kyrie, I would make a wild stab and say that at least some of the first Masses or parts of them were said in Greek, kind of a lingua franca if you will. Later as the Church consolidated in Rome, Latin took over pushing Greek aside…

2 I agree in part with this and disagree in part. Throughout history God required sacrifices be made to him for many things. I don’t adhere to the belief that the birth of Christ Jesus diminished Gods requirement of a sacrifice. Nothing before ever had. So, while we definitely receive a great deal and benefit from the Mass it is primarily for Him.

3 Actually there is not a great problem in translating the Latin into English. The problem is that modern man wants the translation to match his current beliefs. For instance, we want inclusive language, we dont want to hear mankind, or his will. We prefer to hear things that we are comfortable with. I think that if the translations would just be made as they are, without any embellishing, or changing, or saying what we think they meant it would not be much of a challenge. Of course some phrases might nott ring true or make a lot of sense in some rare cases, but having looked through the Mass, I don’t see a lot of things that would pose a problem. The language is pretty simple and cut and dried overall.

Of course, I could be totally off base with this., but I thought I’d give it a shot.

 

[twiztedseraph]

DaMaMaXiMuS:

Greetings and peace unto you all,

I’m asking this question for edification purposes. But why is it such a big deal with many people to have masses in latin. I’ve recently converted to Catholicism so I don’t know all the facts and reasons behind this.

So if someone could kindly speak about this I’d really appreciate it.

God Bless You All,

Nelson

In both the Apostolic and Nicene creeds we profess that we believe in but “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.” One, in faith, government and yes worship. So thus the prayers I say at mass on sunday should be the same (or so goes the old logic) as it is said on the other side of the world. Latin accomplished this beautifully. It left no room for invalid sacraments due to Priest’s wishing to Ad-Lib. It added a sense of mystery, of beauty. Now I love the Pauline/Novus Mass, but it can be abused and it opened the way for many “innovations” whether or not they were sanctioned. The Latin Mass, brought up most of the great saints of our History, John Paul II grew up with it, it affected his spirituality, ditto Padre Pio, Mother Theresa, St Faustina, etc…

I don’t have a preference between the two masses, but I do get defensive when someone attacks the old mass and calls it elitist or archaic…

 

[VociMike]

4carmel:

I personally would love to see a adaptation of the Novus Ordo or at least parts of it into Latin.

Just to clarify, the Novus Ordo liturgy is in Latin (the Roman Missal or Missale Romanum (I think that’s the Latin title, or at least partial title)). This is then translated by committees to various other languages. ICEL (International Commission on English in the Liturgy) is group that translates this Latin into English.

 

[DaMaMaXiMuS]

I remember a scripture in 1st Corinthians 14:1-19 that talked about speaking in different languages (tongues) and how someone needs to interpret so that the church receives edification. Otherwise, the person speaking in tongues will be speaking into the air.

Wouldn’t this be a lesson for the church today? It’s more important that people receive edification than for them to have to learn Latin?

And I realize that the above scripture probably has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but I thought it could still lend some help to the discussion.

 

[James0235]

VociMike:

Just to clarify, the Novus Ordo liturgy is in Latin (the Roman Missal or Missale Romanum (I think that’s the Latin title, or at least partial title)). This is then translated by committees to various other languages. ICEL (International Commission on English in the Liturgy) is group that translates this Latin into English.

True. Although any first year Latin student would probably say that “ICEL (International Commission on English in the Liturgy) is group that paraphrases this Latin into English.”

God bless,

James

 

[Chalice]

palmas85:

The people did not pray the Rosary because they were turned off by the Latin Mass. At least most of them didn’t. In many missals of the period, and I have a large collection of them, it was reccommended that during parts of the Mass it was approproate to pray the Rosary or other prayers while the Priest was involved in saying the prayers he alone said. Some missals even suggested which prayers to say during this time.

Also it was not uncommon in previous years for many people to be illiterate and unable to follow the Mass in the Missals. The Rosary gave them a way to participate fully.

And in closing, many people, myself included, took and continue take their Rosaries to Mass and finger them without saying any of the prayers. Being a sacramental object I feel it brings me a bit closer to Jesus Christ.

MOST praying the rosary during the Tridentine Mass did so because they were utterly baffled at what was going on in the sanctuary. They didn’t have a clue.

Was this prohibitied? No, it was not, but it still is a sad reminder that the past wasn’t always as bright as we remember it.

 

[JOHNYJ]

Myth or Urban legend, thats what these stories of people saying their Rosarys durig the Tridentine Mass.
We are talking about people who had been brought up on the Latin Mass, many since they were 4 or 5. They received their first missal when they were 7.
I would bet that saying the Rosary during Mass went way up,after the new Mass was imposed. Too many it smacked of being protestant ! So they took refuge in the Rosary.
Today we have a new phenomenon taking place.Young people who have never heard Latin or been to a Tridentine Mass going to one and getting hooked.
Maybe its the class or dignity or the sense of worshiping God.That attracts them,but. Attraced they are ! This is a nightmare for many bshops, there hootnanny masses and using churches for meeting halls.Is not what these young people want.Thats why they fight so hard in many diocese to stop the Old Mass from coming back. Thats also why Catholics must stand up for their RIGHT to have the old Mass.

 

[dljl]

JOHNYJ:

This is a nightmare for many bshops, there hootnanny masses …

LOL! So true. I will say I remember hearing some pretty incredible music (in Latin) at church when I was a kid. As a musician, it was awesome!

 

[palmas85]

Chalice:

MOST praying the rosary during the Tridentine Mass did so because they were utterly baffled at what was going on in the sanctuary. They didn’t have a clue.

Was this prohibitied? No, it was not, but it still is a sad reminder that the past wasn’t always as bright as we remember it.

I hate to disagree with you, but I come from a very religious background, mom aunts uncles cousins the whole bit. ALL and I mean everyone of the women relatives I had either had the rosaries out while at Mass or prayed at least part of while there. None were turned off as you say by the Mass and all were extremely devout Catholics. Most attended Mass every day. Fewer of the men did it, mostly older men. But they wern’t turned off either, they just didn’t by and large do it as often.

And yes, my mom, who taught me to bring my rosary with me to Mass, knew more about the Mass, was more devoted to it and loved it more then you or I ever will. When they came out with the new Mass she cried, physically cried at what had been done to her Church…

I have heard this sort of Traditional Mass bashing for years, and it is completely 100% FALSE

 

[netmilsmom]

palmas85:

I hate to disagree with you, but I come from a very religious background, mom aunts uncles cousins the whole bit. ALL and I mean everyone of the women relatives I had either had the rosaries out while at Mass or prayed at least part of while there. None were turned off as you say by the Mass and all were extremely devout Catholics. Most attended Mass every day. Fewer of the men did it, mostly older men. But they wern’t turned off either, they just didn’t by and large do it as often.

And yes, my mom, who taught me to bring my rosary with me to Mass, knew more about the Mass, was more devoted to it and loved it more then you or I ever will. When they came out with the new Mass she cried, physically cried at what had been done to her Church…

I have heard this sort of Traditional Mass bashing for years, and it is completely 100% FALSE

We have three rosaries that have been touched to a piece of the True Cross brought to Detroit on the Relic Tour.
We hold them during mass. They are Sacramentals.
Whether ladies said the rosary or just held it, they were much more visable then they are now.

 

[palmas85]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

We have three rosaries that have been touched to a piece of the True Cross brought to Detroit on the Relic Tour.
We hold them during mass. They are Sacramentals.
Whether ladies said the rosary or just held it, they were much more visable then they are now.

I too hold mine during Mass. I feel it brings me closer to Christ. I think one of the reasons that you see less of it is the fact that not as many people say it as there used to be. I remember that there used to almost always be a Rosary said before or after mass. Now the church wasn’t always full, but it usually had more than a few people. Now, while some churches have publuc rosaries, by and large they are very poorly attended.

In todays fast paced world, I guess many people just can’t find the time to sit down and say the Rosary, as you know it does take a while to say.

Beyond that, there just doesn’t seem to be as much devotion to the Blessed Virgin these days. While strong in some areas, overall it is nothing at all like it used to be. Anybody have any ideas on why that is?

 

[netmilsmom]

palmas85:

I too hold mine during Mass. I feel it brings me closer to Christ. I think one of the reasons that you see less of it is the fact that not as many people say it as there used to be. I remember that there used to almost always be a Rosary said before or after mass. Now the church wasn’t always full, but it usually had more than a few people. Now, while some churches have publuc rosaries, by and large they are very poorly attended.

In todays fast paced world, I guess many people just can’t find the time to sit down and say the Rosary, as you know it does take a while to say.

Beyond that, there just doesn’t seem to be as much devotion to the Blessed Virgin these days. While strong in some areas, overall it is nothing at all like it used to be. Anybody have any ideas on why that is?

If you are ever in Detroit, come to my church.
Our pre-Mass Rosary is packed!

 

[palmas85]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

If you are ever in Detroit, come to my church.
Our pre-Mass Rosary is packed!

If I’m ever there you can count on it. Actually I may be there. Several of my relatives were displaced as a result of the hurricane in New Orleans and have resettled in the Detroit area. Maybe I will just head up that way.

 

[mosher]

rwoehmke:

I am struggling with some items from the discussion thus far.

1. Jesus spoke Aramaic as did his disciples. I expect the very first liturgical celibrations including the Last Supper would have been in Aramaic.
2. The idea that the purpose of the Mass is primarily something we give to God. While it is a sacrifice offered to God and pleasing to Him, it would seem that its natural result is more for our building up and formation in Christ, rather than something that primarily benefits God. In other words the creature is by nature benefitted by recognizing and worshipping his creator
3. If it is so difficult to render the Latin Mass into English, doesn’t it naturally follow that unless one understands and can think in Latin, the English translation of the Latin of the Tridentine Mass found in the Missal must of necessity be lacking? Then would it not be so that the “power and awe” are not so much something intellectual as emotional in nature?

1. Actually Jesus spoke many languages as did most people of the time including Greek and Hebrew. Most of the Old Testament Quotes that Jesus used in the Gospels are from the Septuagent which is in Greek.
2. True, yet it is as a result that we receive a good from it. The nature fo the Mass is worship which involves sacrifice and is due God because we are His creatures. It does not improve God rather it is our recognition of Him being God and establishing ever again our covenant with Him.
3. Yes, the use of latin is primarily for unity and mystery which are human aspects and are other than aesthetics are not aspects of the higher functions of the soul.