What's the difference between Lutherin and Evangelical Lutherin

[Serap]

Is there a difference?

 

[Juliebug108]

Is there a difference?

Are you asking what the difference is between WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod), LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), and ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church America)?

There are just a few theological or practical disagreements between the synods:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

Q. What are the main differences between the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)?

A. From the LCMS perspective, the three main theological differences between the LCMS and the WELS are the following:

1. The biblical understanding of fellowship.

The WELS holds to what is called the “unit concept” of fellowship, which places virtually all joint expressions of the Christian faith on the same level. In an official statement made in 1960 the WELS states, “Church fellowship should therefore be treated as a unit concept, covering every joint expression, manifestation, and demonstration of a common faith” (Doctrinal Statements of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, 1970, pp. 51-52). The LCMS, however, has historically not understood or practiced church fellowship in this way. Our Synod, for example, has made a distinction between altar and pulpit fellowship (for which full doctrinal agreement is required) and other manifestations of Christian fellowship, such as prayer fellowship (which do not necessarily require full doctrinal agreement). Disagreements on this issue led the Wisconsin to break fellowship with the LCMS in 1961.

1. The doctrine of the ministry.

With respect to the doctrine of the ministry, since the days of C. F. W. Walther our Synod has held that the office of the public ministry (the pastoral office) according to the Scriptures is the one divinely established office in the church, while the church possesses the freedom to create other offices, by human institution, from time to time to assist in the carrying out of the functions of the pastoral ministry. The WELS’ Theses on Church and Ministry, however, expressly deny that the pastoral ministry is specifically instituted by the Lord in contrast to other forms of public ministry (see Doctrinal Statements, pp. 9-11; cf. the Commission on Theology and Church Relations’ 1981 report on The Ministry: Office, Procedures, and Nomenclature.

1. The role of women in the church.

While both the LCMS and the WELS strongly oppose the ordination of women to the pastoral office on Scriptural grounds, the LCMS has concluded that the Scriptures do not forbid woman suffrage in the church. The WELS opposes woman suffrage in the church as contrary to the Scriptures.

As for ELCA:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2146

Q. What are the main differences between the Missouri Synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA)?

A. In terms of the official position of our two church bodies as reflected in formally adopted statements of belief and practice the three main areas of difference between the LCMS and the ELCA are the following:

1. The doctrine and authority of Scripture. The LCMS believes that the Bible is without error in all that it says. The ELCA avoids making such statements, holding that Scripture is not necessarily always accurate on such matters as history and science. Differences between the LCMS and the ELCA on the authority of Scripture also help to explain why the ELCA ordains women to the pastoral office, while the LCMS does not (based on 1 Cor 14:33-36 and 1Tim 2:11-14). Similarly, on the basis of what Scripture clearly teaches (Rom 1:18-28; 1 Cor 6:9), the LCMS position on homosexual behavior is unequivocal: homosexual behavior is contrary to God’s will, while the ELCA has declared that it lacks a consensus regarding what Scripture teaches about homosexual activity. Consequently, those who disagree with one another in the ELCA have been called to respect the ‘bound conscience’ of the others. The ELCA has also determined to allow the ordination of practicing homosexuals as long as they are in a life-long, committed relationship.

1. The commitment to Lutheran confessional writings. The ELCA, while affirming its commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as witnessed to in the Lutheran confessions, also tends to emphasize the historical character of these writings and to maintain the possibility of dissent to confessional positions that do not deal directly with the Gospel itself understood in a narrow sense. All LCMS pastors are required to affirm that the Lutheran confessions are a correct explanation of the teachings of Scripture.

1. The level of agreement necessary to join together in one church body. While the LCMS believes that the Bible requires agreement in all that the Bible teaches, the ELCA holds that disagreement in some matters of doctrine, such as the mode of Christ’s presence in Holy Communion, do not prohibit church fellowship.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Serap]

Are you asking what the difference is between WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod), LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), and ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church America)?

There are just a few theological or practical disagreements between the synods:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

As for ELCA:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2146

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Thanks. Which one did Luther originally create?

 

[Serap]

Are you asking what the difference is between WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod), LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), and ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church America)?

There are just a few theological or practical disagreements between the synods:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

As for ELCA:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2146

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Another question. Why are you exploring Catholism? Is there anything lacking in your current church?

 

[Alix1912]

Thanks. Which one did Luther originally create?

Luther originally set out to reform the Catholic Church. He only broke away when he was forced to do so. He then created the Lutheran Church in Germany. As Lutheranism grew it was practiced slightly differently in the different areas of Europe. The LCMS, ELCA, and WELS are all American denominations that came about over the last couple hundred years based off of the types of Lutheranism that the immigrants from europe often practiced. This is particularly true for the WELS and LCMS, the ELCA is actually a bunch of smaller Lutheran denominations that came together to form a bigger one, ironically it is not breaking back apart over the ordination of women and gays.

While in later years there have developed some bigger doctrinal differences between the denominations originally they were more culteral and style differences than doctrine.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks. Which one did Luther originally create?

Luther didn’t “create” any Lutheran body. The Lutheran confessions refer to the Church as the congregational of believeres, where the word is preached and the sacraments rightly administered.
All Lutherans consider themselves “evangelical”, as in “Gospel” or “good news”. Though the reformation era usage of the term is different than current American usage. More traditional Lutherans, such as myself, use the term Evangelical Catholic.

Jon

 

[Juliebug108]

Thanks. Which one did Luther originally create?

Well, the LCMS strictly adheres to Augsburg Confession which was put forth by Luther upon the formation of the Lutheran denomination. I’m really unfamiliar with WELS, so I can’t really answer for them. I was raised in the ELCA, and I believe that it is the farthest from what Luther originally intended. They tend to have a neutral position on things like abortion, and they ordain openly gay clergy…things like that are what lead me away from the ELCA. I have a hard time seeing Luther agree with abortion or gay marriage and/or gay clergy.

Another question. Why are you exploring Catholism? Is there anything lacking in your current church?

Yes, I do feel that something is lacking in Lutheranism. Primarily, I believe that the Lutheran position on justification is incomplete. I agree 100% with the Catholic position of faith and works versus faith alone (Lutheran position). The Lutheran application of it has been somewhat lazy in all my observations…or another way of putting it would be to say that I now view Lutheran theology as being “Christianity lite”…it’s seeming more and more like the fat-free, skim-milk version of Christ’s church…I hope that makes sense. LOL

As I learn more and more about Catholicism, I am starting to doubt Lutheran Holy Orders, which is leading me to doubt whether the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus in the Lutheran church…I’m doubting Lutheran confession/absolution. I mean heck, my specific church has been teaching people for months now that our sins are hidden from God, and pretty much entirely skipping over confession and repentance…

It’s like they are only telling PART of the truth…and that’s problematic in my opinion. Anyway, it’s a bit more complicated than that, but I’ll keep it simple.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[duneman]

juliebug108… i was Wisconsin Synod Luteran in my youth and i remember Minister saying that Pope was anti Christ ?!?

 

[Serap]

See, I kinda agree with Luther when it comes to Purgatory. Where in the bible does it state Purgatory? Why is Purgatory a doctrine in the CC?

Is there Confession in the Lutherin church?

I can see why Luther saw things the way he did and today, he would feel the same about many things that the CC is doing. The Vatican sits there in all of it’s glory, and yet, all those assets could be given to the poor.

I dunno…I guess it’s human nature. I just have a hard time accepting it.

 

[Serap]

juliebug108… i was Wisconsin Synod Luteran in my youth and i remember Minister saying that Pope was anti Christ ?!?

 

[JonNC]

Well, the LCMS strictly adheres to Augsburg Confession which was put forth by Luther upon the formation of the Lutheran denomination. I’m really unfamiliar with WELS, so I can’t really answer for them. I was raised in the ELCA, and I believe that it is the farthest from what Luther originally intended. They tend to have a neutral position on things like abortion, and they ordain openly gay clergy…things like that are what lead me away from the ELCA. I have a hard time seeing Luther agree with abortion or gay marriage and/or gay clergy.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Hi Julie,
I think its probably a bit of “shorthand” to say that Luther put forth the Augsburg Confession. It was a joint effort, including Melanchthon, Jonas, etc. I also think it was the intention of Augsburg to prevent a schism within the western Church, as opposed to being a statement regarding a formation of a Lutheran denomination. Emporor Charles V proclammation:

“The diet is to consider furthermore what might and ought to be done and resolved upon regarding the division and separation in the holy faith and the Christian religion; and that this may proceed the better and more salubriously, [the Emperor urged] to allay divisions, to cease hostility, to surrender past errors to our Savior, and to display diligence in hearing, understanding, and considering with love and kindness the opinions and views of everybody, in order to reduce them to one single Christian truth and agreement, to put aside whatever has not been properly explained or done by either party, so that we all may adopt and hold one single and true religion; and may all live in one communion, church, and unity, even as we all live and do battle under one Christ.”

Beyond that, I agree with your assessment of the ELCA (without reflection on its individual members). As far as your concerns about Lutheran doctrine on Justification, we can save that for another time.
Jon

Jon

 

[Juliebug108]

juliebug108… i was Wisconsin Synod Luteran in my youth and i remember Minister saying that Pope was anti Christ ?!?

Yup…the LCMS teaches this as well. To clarify, they do not make the claim that any specific Pope is/was the anti-Christ, but rather, the Papal office…I’m not sure how to explain it, so I’ll post the link:

The Antichrist and the Papacy - The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod

Seriously over-the-top and extreme…BUT I’d be surprised if many Lutherans actually believe this. I certainly don’t.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Juliebug108]

See, I kinda agree with Luther when it comes to Purgatory. Where in the bible does it state Purgatory? Why is Purgatory a doctrine in the CC?

Is there Confession in the Lutherin church?

I can see why Luther saw things the way he did and today, he would feel the same about many things that the CC is doing. The Vatican sits there in all of it’s glory, and yet, all those assets could be given to the poor.

I dunno…I guess it’s human nature. I just have a hard time accepting it.

Idk, I think purgatory makes sense…as a state/condition though, and not as a separate place.

The Lutheran Church does have confession…but it’s really not taken as seriously as it is in the Catholic Church. I’ve never known any Lutherans to actually practice it, but I’m sure they exist. There is only one Lutheran church in my entire district that actually has scheduled times on Saturdays for confession/absolution.

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that the Lutheran church’s position on confession is that it was instituted as a means of comforting believers and assuring them of the forgiveness of their sins. Whereas the CC teaches that it is absolutely necessary, especially in the case of being able to participate in Holy Communion…not to mention the whole mortal & venial sin aspect.

I agree with your statement about the Vatican…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Juliebug108]

Hi Julie,
I think its probably a bit of “shorthand” to say that Luther put forth the Augsburg Confession. It was a joint effort, including Melanchthon, Jonas, etc. I also think it was the intention of Augsburg to prevent a schism within the western Church, as opposed to being a statement regarding a formation of a Lutheran denomination.

Hi Jon,

It’s definitely the shorthand version! LOL. I was merely trying to keep things down to the basics. However, the LCMS does strictly adhere to the Augsburg Confession, so regardless of whether it was intended to prevent schism or not, one could very well argue that it is what our denomination is built upon…thus making it the closest to what Luther actually had in mind. That was more the point I was trying to make.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[duneman]

juliebug108 hi, thnaks for answering me, i read your link you posted on wels thinking Papal Office is the Anti Christ… very interesting and thanks for putting that on… when the Minister said that i did walk out, he called me and i said i could not come back as i could not handle that comment.

 

[JonNC]

juliebug108 hi, thnaks for answering me, i read your link you posted on wels thinking Papal Office is the Anti Christ… very interesting and thanks for putting that on… when the Minister said that i did walk out, he called me and i said i could not come back as i could not handle that comment.

Just to back Julie up, I too do not view the papacy as anti-Christ. And I certainly don’t believe that this pope, or any of the previous popes were anti-Christ (how could one say that of John Paul II ).

Jon

 

[Serap]

Just to back Julie up, I too do not view the papacy as anti-Christ. And I certainly don’t believe that this pope, or any of the previous popes were anti-Christ (how could one say that of John Paul II ).

Jon

It’s a sin to call anyone an “anti-Christ”. People always target the pope with that for some reason.

I am asking questions b/c I have a lot of respect for what Luther stood up for.

 

[Alix1912]

See, I kinda agree with Luther when it comes to Purgatory. Where in the bible does it state Purgatory? Why is Purgatory a doctrine in the CC?

Is there Confession in the Lutherin church?

I can see why Luther saw things the way he did and today, he would feel the same about many things that the CC is doing. The Vatican sits there in all of it’s glory, and yet, all those assets could be given to the poor.

I dunno…I guess it’s human nature. I just have a hard time accepting it.

I as a Lutheran have no issues with the wealth of the Vatican. Many amazing works of art, historical documents, and other items have been preserved because of the wealth of the Vatican. Was some of that wealth gotten through not so great methods…yes, however the men who committed those crimes are dead and gone, and even in cases forgotten. Yet the beautiful works of art often portraying God and Christ stay.

Idk, I think purgatory makes sense…as a state/condition though, and not as a separate place.

The Lutheran Church does have confession…but it’s really not taken as seriously as it is in the Catholic Church. I’ve never known any Lutherans to actually practice it, but I’m sure they exist. There is only one Lutheran church in my entire district that actually has scheduled times on Saturdays for confession/absolution.

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that the Lutheran church’s position on confession is that it was instituted as a means of comforting believers and assuring them of the forgiveness of their sins. Whereas the CC teaches that it is absolutely necessary, especially in the case of being able to participate in Holy Communion…not to mention the whole mortal & venial sin aspect.

I agree with your statement about the Vatican…

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Our Lutheran Church MS doesn’t have posted times for confession. It is included in the litergy at the beginning of every service, prior to communion. Also the pastor is availible by appointment to discuss sins and issues that are troubling you in your life. Confession is not only about being forgiven it is also about facing your sins and getting support to fight them. Confession is supposed to be a big part of the Lutheran Faith, hence including it in every service. If individuals fail to take that time of the service seriously or do not take advantage of the pastor’s and their ability to provide wisdom and counsel…it’s no one’s fault but their own. I have to wonder how many Catholics go to confession regualrly as it is only offered at my husbands church for 45 minutes each saturday afternoon…there is no way 600 families could utilize such a small amount of time.

Yup…the LCMS teaches this as well. To clarify, they do not make the claim that any specific Pope is/was the anti-Christ, but rather, the Papal office…I’m not sure how to explain it, so I’ll post the link:

The Antichrist and the Papacy - The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod

Seriously over-the-top and extreme…BUT I’d be surprised if many Lutherans actually believe this. I certainly don’t.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

I have never heard this preached in any of the several LCMS churches I have attended in my lifetime.

 

[Juliebug108]

Our Lutheran Church MS doesn’t have posted times for confession. It is included in the litergy at the beginning of every service, prior to communion. Also the pastor is availible by appointment to discuss sins and issues that are troubling you in your life. Confession is not only about being forgiven it is also about facing your sins and getting support to fight them. Confession is supposed to be a big part of the Lutheran Faith, hence including it in every service. If individuals fail to take that time of the service seriously or do not take advantage of the pastor’s and their ability to provide wisdom and counsel…it’s no one’s fault but their own. I have to wonder how many Catholics go to confession regualrly as it is only offered at my husbands church for 45 minutes each saturday afternoon…there is no way 600 families could utilize such a small amount of time.

You’re talking about the general confession…that’s not really on par with individually consulting a pastor or priest to receive absolution, which was very much what Luther practiced…Even our catechism has a walk-through of how to go through private confession.

Also, not to sound rude, but I’m having trouble figuring out your point. Many Catholics don’t regularly confess…so…what? The question was about Lutheran confession…

I have never heard this preached in any of the several LCMS churches I have attended in my lifetime.

Ok, but it is a doctrine of the LCMS regardless.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Serap]

Does the Lutheran church really teach that the pope is the anti-Christ or is it just a few pastors?