whats the difference?

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Stephentlig

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Hello, what is the difference between the Maronite Catholics and Byzantine? confused how do they differ from each other and from Roman Catholics?

Pax Christi
Stephen <3
 
Stephentlig said:
Hello, what is the difference between the Maronite Catholics and Byzantine? confused how do they differ from each other and from Roman Catholics?

Pax Christi
Stephen <3
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Not to be critical, but the question would probably be better suited to the Eastern Catholicism forum.
 
malphono said:
Not to be critical, but the question would probably be better suited to the Eastern Catholicism forum.
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Thank you, I did not know there was one, I dont frequent this place too often.

Pax Christi
Stephen <3
 
There are several Rites within the Catholic Church. Those are two of the Eastern Rites. There were 12 Apostles. They went in different directions when they evangelized the world. Thus do we have different Valid Rites - but One True Church.

Pax
 
Malleus_01 said:
There are several Rites within the Catholic Church. Those are two of the Eastern Rites. There were 12 Apostles. They went in different directions when they evangelized the world. Thus do we have different Valid Rites - but One True Church.

Pax
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Since this question more properly belongs in the Eastern Catholicism Forum, I’m going to make one quick comment and the request that the discussion be moved. 🙂

Saying that there are several “Rites” within the Catholic Church can be offensive to Eastern ears if not understood properly. The designation “Byzantine” does indeed refer to the rite. But there is no such thing as the “Byzantine Church” or “Catholics of the Byzantine Rite.” People do not belong to a rite, people belong to one of many particular churches within the Catholic Communion (or if you’re Orthodox, one of the many particular churches within the Orthodox Communion). Strictly speaking, the rite belongs to the people. There are the Ruthenian, Romanian, Melkite, Russian, Ukrainian, etc. churches (both in communion with Rome and not in communion with Rome) that utilize the “Byzantine Rite.” However, the designation “Maronite” refers to a particular Eastern church within the Catholic Communion of Churches. The Maronites are not a rite; although I don’t what their liturgical rite is called.
 
Let me say this , regardless of Rite when Transubstantiation takes place its the Real Presence whether East or West and its the ONE SACRIFICE of the Holy Cross each and every time. I find this ONLY IMPORTANT fact the most important fact that seemingly is lost and never discussed in most of these East verses West conversations.

Perhaps if we understood that there is ONE CROSS and ONE SACRIFICE some of this nonsense would end.

Because to me - thats what it is - nonsence.

There is One Lord Jesus Christ over both east and west.

And no one should be offended by his Body and Blood present in every Valid Rite.

Pax
 
Most people are not aware that the “Catholic Church” is actually comprised of twenty-three independent Catholic Churches, all in union with the pope. The Western, or Latin Catholic Church, is so large, however, that many people, even Catholics, are completely unaware of the other twenty-two churches, which make up the Eastern Branch. (Some have from only a few thousand members to a few million.)

Originally, there was only one denomination… the Catholic Church (the word Catholic meaning “universal”). However, there were five cities that early on were singled out as being important centers of Christianity. They were Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and of course, Rome. Each developed its own unique traditions and liturgy, but ALL shared a common theology and were in communion with each other and the Bishop of Rome, known as the Pope. However, about 1000 years ago, due to a variety of unfortunate problems, the other four cities, allied with the Byzantine Empire, mutually broke off from Rome, forming the various Eastern Orthodox Churches. Although doctrinally, they are virtually identical to Catholics, they refuse to acknowledge that the pope is more than a “first among equals”. (A couple groups broke of much earlier in the 400s AD also, to form what are known as the Oriental Orthodox Churches).

What has happened is that over time, some portions of each of the various Orthodox groups have decided to reconcile with the Catholic Church and come back into communion with Rome. When they do, they are allowed to keep all of their traditions and much of their independence, although they acknowledge the authority of the Pope. They become truly Catholic, in that anyone from ANY branch of the Catholic Church can participate in the liturgy and ceremonies of any OTHER branch of the Catholic Church. The only two Eastern groups that never fell out of communion with the Catholic Church were the Maronite Catholic Church, and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church. So… for every branch of the Orthodox Churches that are NOT in communion with Rome, there is a corresponding and virtually identical branch of the Eastern Catholic Church that IS in communion with Rome. Since their customs and liturgies date from before the Council of Trent, they are allowed to remain.

The following liturgies are used by the Eastern Catholic Churches:
  • The Liturgy of St. Basil
  • The Chaldean Mass
  • The Order of the Divine and Holy Liturgy of Our Father Among the Saints Gregory the Theologian (or Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts)
  • The Liturgy of St. James
  • The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
  • The Liturgy of St. Mark
  • The Holy Qorbono
 
Here is a listing that includes EACH of the twenty-three Catholic Churches in union with the Pope. Do not confuse “churches” with “rites”. A rite is a series of traditions, that includes different customs and liturgies. Several different churches may use the exact same rite. A Church has its own rules and separate line of authority to the Pope. It may also have a figure in charge, like a Metropolitan or a Patriarch (like an Archbishop), since these churches are generally very small and work very hard to preserve their unique traditions. The major rites are the Latin, Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean, and Byzantine.

**The Western (Latin) Catholic Church

Latin liturgical tradition**
  1. Ordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that you will find in virtually every Latin Catholic Church almost every day of the week. This Mass has existed since the mid-1960s, ever since reforms were made following the Second Vatican Council.)
  2. Extraordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that was used in virtually every Latin Catholic Church from the Middle Ages until the mid-1960s. It may still be said in Catholic Churches should a priest choose to use it. Some of the differences from the Ordinary Form include the exclusive use of the Latin language (except for the homily), the receipt of Communion exclusively on the tongue and kneeling, the priest facing the same direction as the people (toward the altar and God) so he can lead the people in prayer, no lay participation on the altar, and usually, no responses by lay people.)
  3. Ambrosian Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Milan)
  4. Mozarabic Rite (Only permitted in the Cathedral of Toledo, Spain and a few surrounding churches of the diocese)
  5. Bragan Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Braga, Portugal)
  6. Anglican-Use Mass (This form was once only permitted in the extremely rare circumstance in which an Anglican priest converted to Catholicism and brings his entire parish with him. In that event, a parish could continue to use the Anglican liturgy, with corrections to make it conform with Catholic teachings. It was originally meant as a transitional liturgy, and upon the death of the pastor, the church would revert to the Ordinary Form. With the recent provisions announced by the Vatican to allow Anglicans into the Catholic Church and keep their traditions, it seems that the Anglican-Use will now become both far more widespread AND permanent.)
Rites of Religious Orders
  1. Dominican Rite
  2. Carthusian Rite
  3. Carmelite Rite
  4. Cisternian Rite
Note: Technically, the forms of the Latin liturgy listed above are NOT different rites, but variations of the SAME rite, although people do tend to commonly use the term somewhat erroneously in this context. The differences between the Latin “rites” are FAR less than those between the Latin liturgy and any of the Eastern Rites.)

**The Eastern Catholic Churches
  1. Alexandrian liturgical tradition**
  2. Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Egypt (1741)
  3. Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia): Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)
    2. Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition
  4. Maronite Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
  5. Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
  6. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): India, United States (1930)
    3. Armenian liturgical tradition:
  7. Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)
    4. Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
  8. Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate): Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
  9. Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate): India, Middle East, Europe and America.
    5. Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
  10. Albanian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic administration): Albania (1628)
  11. Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): Belarus (1596)
  12. Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate): Bulgaria (1861)
  13. Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
  14. Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates): Greece, Turkey (1829)
  15. Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Hungary (1646)
  16. Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): Italy (Never separated)
  17. Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Republic of Macedonia (1918)
  18. Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate): Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
  19. Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate): Romania, United States (1697)
  20. Russian Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
  21. Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate): United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
  22. Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
  23. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)
 
Mal: Rolltide - that was a very good and enlightening and insightful contribution. Because the Catholic Church is still One. St Ignatius of Antioch first used the term “Catholic” to describe the universality of the Church Jesus Christ formed on this Earth and Antioch as we all know is located in the EAST. It was at one time the See of St Peter prior to him going to Rome and St Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch when St Peter left.

I get tired of people making claims that any other form of Mass or any other part of the Church is any better than any other part of the Church. The CHURCH is one. Each time we recieve the Body and Blood of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament - we are united with every other Catholic eastern or western in the World doing likewise. There is ONE LORD and there is one Shepherd and one flock and one fold.

I enjoyed your commentary - thank you for it.
 
Rolltide said:
  1. Anglican-Use Mass (This form was once only permitted in the extremely rare circumstance in which an Anglican priest converted to Catholicism and brings his entire parish with him. In that event, a parish could continue to use the Anglican liturgy, with corrections to make it conform with Catholic teachings. It was originally meant as a transitional liturgy, and upon the death of the pastor, the church would revert to the Ordinary Form. With the recent provisions announced by the Vatican to allow Anglicans into the Catholic Church and keep their traditions, it seems that the Anglican-Use will now become both far more widespread AND permanent.)
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Do you know if the Anglican Use will have its translations changed since it, like the English OF, currently has the “for all” in its consecration form?

Thanks for the other pieces of information you posted.
 
Malleus_01 said:
I get tired of people making claims that any other form of Mass or any other part of the Church is any better than any other part of the Church. The CHURCH is one.
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Then direct your anger to those bishops and patriarchs and priests who promote a certain vernacular or denigrate a certain form of Mass. You’re right in that the Church is one. One house, many views, many prayers, many traditions, many customs, many cultures, and many treasures.
 
ProVobis said:
Do you know if the Anglican Use will have its translations changed since it, like the English OF, currently has the “for all” in its consecration form?

Thanks for the other pieces of information you posted.
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Here’s the current Order of the Mass according to the Catholic Book of Divine Worship. It is not known yet WHAT version of the Mass will be used for the new Anglican parishes. They may stick with this version, or they may go to something else. It’s all still being negotiated.
 
Pro vobis write : Then direct your anger to those bishops and patriarchs and priests who promote a certain vernacular or denigrate a certain form of Mass. You’re right in that the Church is one. One house, many views, many prayers, many traditions, many customs, many cultures, and many treasures.

Mal: Thanks for letting me vent. I completely agree with you on this issue. And I have in fact directed my concerns (Dont know if I would consider it anger) to Clergy on several occasions over the last ten years. There is no doubt that there are many Bishops / Patriarchs / Priests promoting many things that destroy unity not only with fellow Catholics but at times with the Deposit of Faith itself. But it doesnt take one voice to effect change. It takes a unified Catholic voice and perhaps an agenda similar to civil disobedience provided we do not openly defy lawful authority. For example. If there is no law against recieving holy communion on the tongue - we should. Even if they let us recieve in the hand. Or abstaining from meat on friday all year. There is no law against doing so. We can take the Church back if enough people refuse the novelties. And voluntarily practise the faith traditionally. We dont have to sing amazing grace or hold hands during the Our Father. There is no law that mandates these things.

Pax
 
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