What's the objection re the Canaanites?

[snarflemike]

God’s command to the Israelites to kill all the Canaanites is often brought up as a “gotcha” against the Judeo-Christian God and faith. I’m curious as to what, EXACTLY, is the objection to the fate of the Canaanites?

 

[triumphguy]

Why always blame the Canadians

Ooops, sorry - misread the thread!

 

[Gorgias]

Why always blame the Canadians

C’mon… everybody knows that Canadians boil the kid in its mother’s milk, and offer their children in sacrifice to Moloch!

Oh, wait… that was the Canaanites, too…

 

[Stillness]

Evil is rarely seen as absolute as it used to be. The objection I hear most often from atheists and members of other religions is that the Caananites could not possibly have been evil enough to warrant such a fate.

 

[snarflemike]

Evil is rarely seen as absolute as it used to be. The objection I hear most often from atheists and members of other religions is that the Caananites could not possibly have been evil enough to warrant such a fate.

Thanks for the reply - you’re not Canadian, are you?

But seriously, taking that objection at face value, is the objection that God misjudged the evil of the Canaanites? But how could an omniscient God make such an error?

 

[Gorgias]

snarfle:

The usual objection (often voiced by the New Atheists) is that it’s immoral to commit genocide, which is how they view the command by God to Israel to conquer the Promised Land. The notion of the ‘ban’, which also appears to include the killing of non-combatants, is part of this claim.

So, their beef is that the notions of an omnibenevolent God and a God who commands genocide and killing of women and children are mutually exclusive; therefore, God cannot be all-good.

 

[Stillness]

Thanks for the reply - you’re not Canadian, are you?

But seriously, taking that objection at face value, is the objection that God misjudged the evil of the Canaanites? But how could an omniscient God make such an error?

No, I am not Canadian. Although I hear it is a beautiful country.
The objection does not seem to be that they think an omniscient God made an error. They seem to think that an omniscient God would not have ordered it to begin with. They look at it and see nothing more than tribal warfare which was common at the time, and say that the scriptural account was written to give some justification for the actions.

 

[robwar]

God’s command to the Israelites to kill all the Canaanites is often brought up as a “gotcha” against the Judeo-Christian God and faith. I’m curious as to what, EXACTLY, is the objection to the fate of the Canaanites?

it is used most often by Islamic apologists in stating the God authorized violence against another group of people in order to take them over. Islamic apologists will use the examples of the OT when God commanded the Israelites to take over the promise land and clean out the people there who were practicing human and child sacrifice, temple prostitution etc as a justification for Islamic aggression and spread towards others. The problem is that this clean up is a one time command in establishing Israel. Islamic aggression is how Islam has been spread starting with Mohammed himself. They were not killing people with child sacrifices but Christians and Jews and anyone else that wasn’t Muslim and refused to convert when given the choice to convert and live or die.

 

[snarflemike]

No, I am not Canadian. Although I hear it is a beautiful country.
The objection does not seem to be that they think an omniscient God made an error. They seem to think that an omniscient God would not have ordered it to begin with. They look at it and see nothing more than tribal warfare which was common at the time, and say that the scriptural account was written to give some justification for the actions.

So if I understand you correctly, the objection is not that God ordered the deaths of the Canaanites, but rather that God could not possibly have ordered their deaths, so the story must be untrue. Did I get that right?

 

[Stillness]

So if I understand you correctly, the objection is not that God ordered the deaths of the Canaanites, but rather that God could not possibly have ordered their deaths, so the story must be untrue. Did I get that right?

That is what the objection seems to be to me. Granted, I may be interpreting it wrong as I do not really care for “moralist” stances on these things. But many (moralist) atheists claim that a loving God could not possibly have desired death on that scale.

 

[snarflemike]

That is what the objection seems to be to me. Granted, I may be interpreting it wrong as I do not really care for “moralist” stances on these things. But many (moralist) atheists claim that a loving God could not possibly have desired death on that scale.

I wonder why the fate of the Canaanites would bother them more than the fact that God allows EVERYBODY to die.

 

[Stillness]

I wonder why the fate of the Canaanites would bother them more than the fact that God allows EVERYBODY to die.

I don’t think it is so much that they were allowed to die that bothers them. Rather, they were actively ordered to be executed.

 

[snarflemike]

it is used most often by Islamic apologists in stating the God authorized violence against another group of people in order to take them over. Islamic apologists will use the examples of the OT when God commanded the Israelites to take over the promise land and clean out the people there who were practicing human and child sacrifice, temple prostitution etc as a justification for Islamic aggression and spread towards others. The problem is that this clean up is a one time command in establishing Israel. Islamic aggression is how Islam has been spread starting with Mohammed himself. They were not killing people with child sacrifices but Christians and Jews and anyone else that wasn’t Muslim and refused to convert when given the choice to convert and live or die.

Thanks. I notice that one major difference between the situations is that there was a living prophet present relaying God’s command re the Canaanites, while that situation has not existed in Islam for over 1300 years.

 

[snarflemike]

I don’t think it is so much that they were allowed to die that bothers them. Rather, they were actively ordered to be executed.

I don’t see the logic in that. If God could prevent a death, how is that different than God ordering a death?

 

[Stillness]

I don’t see the logic in that. If God could prevent a death, how is that different than God ordering a death?

It makes no difference to me. A death is a death. You would have to ask one who feels passionately about the issue. If I had to venture a guess, it would be that their idea of what “loving” means excludes the desire to kill.

 

[snarflemike]

snarfle:

The usual objection (often voiced by the New Atheists) is that it’s immoral to commit genocide, which is how they view the command by God to Israel to conquer the Promised Land. The notion of the ‘ban’, which also appears to include the killing of non-combatants, is part of this claim.

So, their beef is that the notions of an omnibenevolent God and a God who commands genocide and killing of women and children are mutually exclusive; therefore, God cannot be all-good.

Thanks. I think I see a contradiction here. If according to Judeo-Christian teaching, God is the source of all morality, and God orders a thing, then BY DEFINITION that thing cannot be immoral.

 

[snarflemike]

It makes no difference to me. A death is a death. You would have to ask one who feels passionately about the issue. If I had to venture a guess, it would be that their idea of what “loving” means excludes the desire to kill.

Yes, I understand you are simply trying to represent a view as you understand it.

 

[cornbread_r2]

I’ve asked Christians if they would kill others if they truly believed God commanded it, as he apparently did with the Canaanites, and have rarely gotten a straight answer. Usually, I’m told that God would never command such a thing now because Jesus wouldn’t roll that way, or words to that effect.

That answer is unsatisfying for a couple of reasons. First, it presumes that Jesus wasn’t involved with the Canaanite conquest, which can’t be true if one accepts the indivisible, eternally-existing nature of the Trinity. Second, it ignores the Crusades and other officially-sanctioned church actions which were launched by followers of Jesus and who definitely thought they were doing God’s will.

 

[snarflemike]

I’ve asked Christians if they would kill others if they truly believed God commanded it, as he apparently did with the Canaanites, and have rarely gotten a straight answer. Usually, I’m told that God would never command such a thing now because Jesus wouldn’t roll that way, or words to that effect.

That answer is unsatisfying for a couple of reasons. First, it presumes that Jesus wasn’t involved with the Canaanite conquest, which can’t be true if one accepts the indivisible, eternally-existing nature of the Trinity. Second, it ignores the Crusades and other officially-sanctioned church actions which were launched by followers of Jesus and who definitely thought they were doing God’s will.

Well this is really off-topic, but I’ll respond to it anyway. The question you ask Christians is not a fair one. The Israelites had miracle after miracle to give evidence that God was truly leading them in a very personal way. They also had a long string of prophets whose prophecies came true. No Christian has this “back story” to your question (there are no more prophets, for one thing, since Jesus Christ was the real deal, eliminating the need for further prophets), and I think most could hardly imagine it. So your question is actually asking Christians to believe something against their faith, which is why they seem confused in their answers.

But you do make an excellent point that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are the same God, just more fully revealed in the NT. I actually find this a useful thing to point out when “bad OT God” discussions come up. But again, this does not deal with the specific matter of the Canannites.

 

[Michael_Allen]

God’s command to the Israelites to kill all the Canaanites is often brought up as a “gotcha” against the Judeo-Christian God and faith. I’m curious as to what, EXACTLY, is the objection to the fate of the Canaanites?

Personally, I find it challenging that a loving and merciful God commands the violent killing of people, including children who must have been particularly terrified I would think.

Does it not cause you to scratch your head at all snarflemike?