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KingAlfred
Guest
No offense, but the husband might not always be able to become the ‘spiritual head’ of the father. In my family, what little spirituality we had came from my mother. When she died, our family disintegrated.
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Skip_Wiley
Guest
Since he is a pastor, it’s assumed that he is able to meet the Biblical criteria for a pastor, one of which being spiritual head of his household.
Like I said, if he marries her, he should be removed from the pulpit.
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puzzleannie
Guest
morally acceptable? don’t know where that fits in, but cannot imagine any non-denom or Protestant pastor I have ever known being fine with marrying a Catholic, either with his congregation or his church leadership. I think you need some very realistic (name removed by moderator)ut, esp. from other pastor’s wives, on the demands of that position in life.I’m having a disagreement with one of my friends on whether or not a practicing Catholic can marry a “non-denominational” Christian pastor. :banghead: I understand that it would be an extremely awkward situation, but I’m trying to come down to the bottom line of if the whole thing’s even morally acceptable. Any thoughts are extremely appreciated!
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Crazy_Diamond
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that.
When we were going to get married, people expressed the most concern over the pressures we’d face as a mixed-marriage couple (religiously mixed, not racially, just in case anyone wondered if we faced those pressures, too). Fortunately we were also both mature, stable Christians confident in our own traditions and “owning” them personally. Neither of us was simply under the sway of charismatic leadership in our churches. We could each appreciate the strengths of the other’s tradition as well as the weaknesses of our own and not get hung up too badly on the differences. Besides, having children has changed our lives so dramatically that a lot of what seemed terribly important, back in our midnight to 3:00 a.m. intellectual argument days, has faded in significance.
I’d like to know more about what you think is important for a marriage, since you’ve had one wrecked and have a different perspective. For me it has seemed that personal maturity has been the most important factor in our success thus far. I question how important “compatibility” is, simply because every marriage has disagreements strong enough that the couple may start wondering if they are compatible. It just seems kind of a squishy concept. Compatible in what way?
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Crazy_Diamond
Guest
And I have only rarely heard of an unmarried man being allowed to be a pastor. I’m guessing this fellow is actually a youth pastor, a position that is often used as a kind of internship. He may be young enough that he hasn’t actually gone to seminary yet. In fact, I’m almost certain he’s not a senior pastor. Just like priests, they are far too busy to do much hobnobbing with leaders, much less lay folks, in other traditions. How would they even have met?
However, nondenominational Protestants, in my experience, aren’t hesitant to comment on someone’s choice of a spouse. This is especially true of Christians deemed more mature, or potential leaders. I’ll bet he’s gotten quite a lot of (name removed by moderator)ut. Whether she has gotten the same, I wouldn’t hazard a guess. Priests and bishops handle these things in unpredictable ways.
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Skip_Wiley
Guest
I don’t know where you got this idea. I know quite a few single pastors.
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Tonks40
Guest
I know of a similar situation in passing where a practicing Catholic is married to his non-denominational pastor wife. Though I’m not sure if their children were raised Catholic, the impression I get from those who know them say they are very tolerant of each other’s faith traditions.
It seems to me that though the situation would be somewhat problematic, even though it’s not forbidden by the Church, the bigger issue would be the supposed scandal that it would produce in both communities.
It seems to me that though the situation would be somewhat problematic, even though it’s not forbidden by the Church, the bigger issue would be the supposed scandal that it would produce in both communities.
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Crazy_Diamond
Guest
Well, this is more like what I expected.
Out of curiosity, Skip, if I were to start a housechurch tomorrow, would I be disqualified as a leader because my wife is Roman Catholic?
Congratulations to King Alfred for ignoring this silly barb. Catholics’ first allegiance isn’t to the pope but to Christ. I know it doesn’t always seem like it, but Catholics don’t treat every phrase from the pope’s mouth as an infallible statement. Even those whose actions make it look like their first allegiance is to Marian devotions think of that as simply a focal point, not the ultimate allegiance. (At least, in theory, that’s the way it’s supposed to be thought of. Every tradition has problems with folks who go wacky on the details and forget the big picture.)
Submission and spiritual headship are far more complex both in concept and practice than simply what building you walk into on a Sunday morning. Loving my wife as Christ loved the church, laying down my life for her, is not simply a matter of rolling over and doing whatever she wants. Neither is her “submission” to me. I don’t think it will be any more complex for this pastor-and-Catholic-wife than it is for me and my wife. I think they’ll have the same challenges and issues of character development, no more and no less.
(note to Catholic readers: I’m using very Protestant terminology here. Don’t get hung up on the terms used to promote overexaggerated Protestant notions of submission and headship. I’m assuming Skip is Biblically versed enough to recognize the difference between the headship and submission that Paul talked about and the return-to-the-Victorian-era perversion promoted by some legalistic Protestants.)
One of the criteria for pastors, whether “overseers” or “elders” is that they not only be married but have children old enough to judge the man on how his children behave and how well his family is organized. This requirement is rarely practiced among Protestants, although I really really really hope it becomes more common. Another requirement is that they “have a good reputation with outsiders.” Too many Protestant pastors follow that “career path” by starting off isolating themselves from their secular peers while young, then cloistering themselves in seminary, then moving straight into the christian ghetto. There is zero opportunity to find out if they are even capable of gaining a good reputation with outsiders.
So, I wouldn’t be too harsh on the young man if he’s not quite living up to the standards for Biblical leadership qualifications. Very few Protestant pastors do.
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Crazy_Diamond
Guest
Where are you from? I’ve lived 36 years in the Southwest, and I’ve never yet seen a single man become a Protestant pastor. I’ve heard of one case, in Idaho, but not actually met the man.
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Skip_Wiley
Guest
Biblically, yes.
Jesus said “If you love Me, then you’ll keep My commandments”.
The Catholic wife of a Christian pastor would either be going against the Bible by following Catholic teaching or going against the Catholic church by submitting to her husband.
Actually, that’s not a requirement at all.
The Bible says that if a candidate for the office of pastor is married and has children, then those things are required of his wife and children, but it does not say that he must be married or have children.
If you believe that the Bible requires pastors to be married, then I guess that’s just one more example of Catholic priests going against the Bible.
Oh, yeah. Pastors are all hermits. They just lock themselves away in a cave and nobody knows anything about them.
Yeah, that’s real common.
You’re the one who just claimed that the Bible requires pastors to be married and have children.
Catholic priests are not married.
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Tonks40
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Wow. Welcome to the forums. Such definitive statements really shows a lack of understanding of both the Catholic and non-Catholic side of this issue.
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Crazy_Diamond
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Of course! If everyone was moderate, thoughtful, and humble, where would be the fun?
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Crazy_Diamond
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Wow! Okay, if this gets too off-topic we can email each other. Could you cite me chapter, verse, and logical progression on this one? I can’t imagine where you’re coming up with this.
Er, which particular teachings? Not all of them are totally incompatible. And in my experience, every single Protestant church I’ve ever attended had some extrabiblical teaching derived from its history or culture.You’re welcome to pick on the word “requirement,” of course. We could spend all day parsing whatever greek words Paul used for “must” and “should”, but I think it’s pretty obvious this was the expected standard. He wasn’t big on legalistic requirements, but standards weren’t foreign to him.
Yup. Well, okay, to be really super picky, there are plenty of married Catholic priests. Not all Eastern Rites require priestly celibacy. There’s even a few former married Anglican priests who are now Roman Rite priests.
BUT. Yes, indeed, I think that to be considered for one of those leadership role, a man’s family life should come under consideration as as part of judging his readiness to lead in church. I understand why the Orthodox require celibacy of their bishops and the Roman Rite requires it for (most) priests. For example, family life is indeed a distraction from many kinds of ministry. Solving those problems by mandatory celibacy, however, is like draining a mosquito-infested swamp by using a nuclear bomb. In the short-term, you appear to solve the problem, but you create more problems in the long term. Protestants do a similar thing by mostly requiring a seminary education before a man can become a pastor. Instead of learning to rely on the Holy Spirit in the trenches, he learns to rely on intellect and tradition in the cloister.
Don’t sneer so loudly, young fella. A great many Protestant pastors interact very little with anybody outside of their congregation, and even less with anybody outside of their tradition. I’m not kidding when I call it the christian ghetto. Catholic priests have it worse, as far as outside interactions. Their congregations are bigger on average and there’s a far greater tendency to see them as a sort of ministerial or sacramental vending machine.
Yep, indeed, and still do. Did you think I’m Catholic? I’m not, but I recognize the weaknesses of the Protestant approach. There’s nothing wrong with admitting your tradition’s imperfections.
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KingAlfred
Guest
To me, disparities of cult can be overcome through love and acceptance. It’s when people don’t possess those attributes, and try to impose their beliefs on others that problems arise. I’ve known many non-Catholic Christians whose religiosity I admired. Conversely, I’ve known many, many others whose I didn’t, and the feeling was mutual. I couldn’t associate for long with anyone who *despised *my religion. That’s simply too much to have to endure on a regular basis. Unfortunately, this problem exists within my extended family. 
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Crazy_Diamond
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Ouch. There’s no smileys on the list that would express my sympathy. Even if there’s no attempt to impose a different belief, having someone else despise you because of your beliefs hurts.To me, disparities of cult can be overcome through love and acceptance. It’s when people don’t possess those attributes, and try to impose their beliefs on others that problems arise. I’ve known many non-Catholic Christians whose religiosity I admired. Conversely, I’ve known many, many others whose I didn’t, and the feeling was mutual. I couldn’t associate for long with anyone who *despised *my religion. That’s simply too much to have to endure on a regular basis. Unfortunately, this problem exists within my extended family.
My sister had the unfortunate experience of really getting hurt by some power-mad leaders in our evangelical community. Then she ran into a cultish side of evangelicalism that hurt her again. The double-whammy caused her to flee Christianity entirely. She returned years later (sort of - I’m still waiting to see how the story develops) as a Roman Catholic convert. Sometimes the bitter things she says about the tradition we grew up in really hurt, but it helps to remember it’s personal - just not personal toward me. Sometimes it’s funny, too. There are things she says in a nasty way that would include Roman Catholicism too, if she was thinking about it in that way. So I try to remember that hurt people say things in the ER that you shouldn’t hold against them. Still, it can be hard.
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Hlafdige
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The pastor of a church I used to go to agreed to let his wife raise their children in the Catholic faith. Three of their sons became Catholic priests.
I agree with this. It is also why I think a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic *pastor *is a bad idea.
Could it work? Of course. There are many marriages between Catholics and non-Catholics that are very happy. But it’s been my personal experience that the happiest of these marriages are between those where at least one of the parties lacks fervor for the unique religious or theological tenets of that individual’s sect. ***
Since this is a Catholic forum it’s pretty much a given that any marriage which causes a Catholic not to practice the Faith is a bad marriage.***
As a Catholic I consider it problematic if *any *Catholic lacks fervor for the faith. I think such a Catholic has a much greater chance of remaining a practicing Catholic if that person’s spouse is also Catholic. A less-than-passionate Catholic with a non-Catholic spouse is less likely to insist on Mass attendance for self or children when traveling and/or visiting non-Catholic relatives, of practicing Friday penances, of observing Holy Days, etc.
In my opinion the best marriages between Catholics and non-Catholics are those where the non-Catholic is less passionate about practicing. I can’t imagine how a Christian pastor (I’m excluding mail-order ordinations and such trivial cases) would lack passion about practicing his/her religion. I can only see it leading to problems for both parties such as have been pointed out in other posts.
Now none of this is to say that good won’t come out of such a marriage. God often works that way. For instance the pastor may come to see that Catholicism is the historic Faith established by Jesus Christ. But to deliberately enter such a marriage seems crazy.
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Crazy_Diamond
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Unfortunately, it does seem that the vast majority of mixed marriages have at least one person who doesn’t care much about the specifics of their tradition. It very reasonably prejudices fervent people against the rest of us.
Equally unfortunately, the vocally fervent folks often forget that some specifics are a lot more important than others. I could easily have married a Protestant who didn’t take Scripture nearly as seriously as I or my Roman Catholic wife do. She could easily have married a Roman (or other Rite) Catholic who didn’t give a rip what the Vatican teaches about contraception. She’s not going to teach a Scripture class with me at my church, and I’m not going to pray the rosary with her at her church. Yet each of us recognizes the value and ultimate aim of some of the practices we disagree with, even if we think those practices are performed in a flaky and unhelpful way by many of the people in the others’ tradition. Especially we each recognize the value and aim of those spiritual practices in the other’s life, even if we think most people ought to be doing things differently.
It is partly our respect for each other individually that allows us to disagree with the other’s general tradition but see how some of the specifics have been helpful, not harmful, to the other.
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Just_Lurking
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I’m still a little bit distressed that people here automatically assume that Catholic Christianity and non-Catholic Christianity are necessarily in conflict. Not all non-Catholic Christians believe the Pope is the anti-Christ. And the Vatican no longer teaches the “ecumenism of the return”.
Says Cardinal Walter Kasper, Prefect of Vatican Council for Promoting Christian Unity: “… today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being Catholics. This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.” (Adista, Feb. 26, 2001)
Says Cardinal Walter Kasper, Prefect of Vatican Council for Promoting Christian Unity: “… today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being Catholics. This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.” (Adista, Feb. 26, 2001)
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Skip_Wiley
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Thank you. The name calling and constant snide remarks I’ve had to put up with certainly have made me feel welcome.
Really? So then, you’re telling me that a Catholic wife would have no problem submitting to the spiritual authority of her Christian pastor husband when she knows that this would cause her to do things against her religion?
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