What's up with the God of the Old Testament?

[Holly3278]

Seriously! What is up with the God of the Old Testament and how does one reconcile Him with the God of the New Testament? The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the God of the New Testament but the God of the Old Testament just seems so much more angry and violent. I mean, he wiped out all of the earth’s population but a select family with Noah’s flood, He ordered genocides, and He even tested Abram (Abraham) by asking him to sacrifice his son to Him. This is all just so confusing to me. How does one reconcile the seemingly violent and angry God of the Old Testament with the merciful and loving God of the New Testament? Did God change (even though the Bible says God is unchanging) or did we change or what?

 

[porthos11]

Remember that the God of the Old Testament is “the Lord, the Lord, merciful and gracious, slow to anger and rich in loving kindness” Psalm 145:8 (an Old Testament passage).

God dealt with people according to their understanding. Today, we have the fullest evidence of God’s love for us; his Son dying on the Cross. Prior to that, people needed discipline they could understand.

But it also shows us another truth. God is the absolute master of life and death, and our lives are his to dispose of according to his pleasure.

And besides, the God of the New Testament also struck people dead from time to time.

 

[Holly3278]

Remember that the God of the Old Testament is “the Lord, the Lord, merciful and gracious, slow to anger and rich in loving kindness” Psalm 145:8 (an Old Testament passage).

God dealt with people according to their understanding. Today, we have the fullest evidence of God’s love for us; his Son dying on the Cross. Prior to that, people needed discipline they could understand.

But it also shows us another truth. God is the absolute master of life and death, and our lives are his to dispose of according to his pleasure.

And besides, the God of the New Testament also struck people dead from time to time.

True but I don’t understand how a loving and merciful God could order genocides. Please help.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

The Purpose of the Old Testament was to teach us and prepare the way for Christ.

Abraham showed he was willing to sacrifice his son but God saved him from that, in the short term by giving a ram and in the long term by giving his Son as the perfect sacrifice.

The genocides are looking forward as well to judgement day. None of those people were really killed by a sword, they were already dead in the way that is important, spiritually dead, having rejected God. No such dead person was to be allowed in the promised land.

That is looking forward to the day when we receive the new promised land, heaven. No person who rejects God will be allowed in that land. Instead that person, every person who is not one of God’s people, will be thrown into the eternal lake of fire with Satan and the AntiChrist.

There will be no mercy for them. Mercy is for those who have miraculously become one with Christ. God’s chosen, saved through nothing they could do.

The whole promised land showed how the most worthless nation in the whole world was invincible with God on their side.

It displays God’s majesty, proves that there is indeed a God and indeed who God is. So that people can see that, be brought to repentance and eternal life.

It’s a warning, and a promise all rolled into one.

Our gracious and merciful God has done this and thus revealed himself in order to save people, but the response of many is only that it is all unbelievable and not fair.

That’s true, one cannot believe without the supernatural help of the Spirit, and if what was fair was done, everyone would get eternity in the Lake of Fire. Praise the Lord he is not fair.

JJ

 

[Holly3278]

The Purpose of the Old Testament was to teach us and prepare the way for Christ.

Abraham showed he was willing to sacrifice his son but God saved him from that, in the short term by giving a ram and in the long term by giving his Son as the perfect sacrifice.

The genocides are looking forward as well to judgement day. None of those people were really killed by a sword, they were already dead in the way that is important, spiritually dead, having rejected God. No such dead person was to be allowed in the promised land.

That is looking forward to the day when we receive the new promised land, heaven. No person who rejects God will be allowed in that land. Instead that person, every person who is not one of God’s people, will be thrown into the eternal lake of fire with Satan and the AntiChrist.

There will be no mercy for them. Mercy is for those who have miraculously become one with Christ. God’s chosen, saved through nothing they could do.

The whole promised land showed how the most worthless nation in the whole world was invincible with God on their side.

It displays God’s majesty, proves that there is indeed a God and indeed who God is. So that people can see that, be brought to repentance and eternal life.

It’s a warning, and a promise all rolled into one.

Our gracious and merciful God has done this and thus revealed himself in order to save people, but the response of many is only that it is all unbelievable and not fair.

That’s true, one cannot believe without the supernatural help of the Spirit, and if what was fair was done, everyone would get eternity in the Lake of Fire. Praise the Lord he is not fair.

JJ

Hmmm thanks JJ. I think I understand it better now.

 

[theAuthor]

Another thing which helped me was this. The OT times were quite violent. People took land by force more often than today. Just have a look at your history books about the various Empires the world has known. So in those times God, sided with the people who sided with Him. This totally agrees with what Jolly Joe says above, but from a less spiritual standpoint.

 

[AgnosTheist]

None of those people were really killed by a sword, they were already dead in the way that is important, spiritually dead, having rejected God.

Infants dont reject god and yet the Israelites hacked them into pieces in the name of God.

Besides isnt it true that as long as there is life there is also hope? People change. Its impossible that not one tribe-member would change his opinion on God had God revealed himself to them.

 

[Nita]

Hi Holly,

This topic (OT genocide) has come up at least two other times in the past couple weeks. The following is from a previous post I made, with a little editing:

Considering the physical circumstances of Israel at the time (nomadic, lack of resources, etc.), incarceration in jail was not an option. How were the wicked to be dealt with? This was a **whole culture **that needed to be destroyed because of its wickedness.
[As a weak comparison, think of the polygamist enclave in Texas, where the behavior is engrained in the culture itself. Altho, in comparison, what the Texans were doing is very mild – and would not even have been necessarily considered wrong in OT days!!]

The Canaanites were being destroyed (and the land given to Israel) because their wickedness was “complete”. (Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.)
Here is some of what the culture consisted of:
Incest, homosexual actions, bestiality. (Leviticus 18)
Human sacrifice of children, witchcraft, mediums, wizards, (Leviticus 19 & 20)

How does God, or anyone, deal justly with such an evil culture?
How can **good people **dwell in such a nation/culture? **How is justice done for them **as they live and try to raise children in conformity with God’s values?

A just society upholds what is good and protects people from what is harmful. It establishes punishments for harmful acts.

We may not be able to see when a culture has become so depraved, it’s laws and customs actually upholding that depravity, it’s ways so engrained in the inhabitants that the only solution is to destroy it,— but God can.
We can know and trust that when God ordered the destruction of the Canaanites, it was not only what was best for the Jews (and future generations here on earth), but also what was best for the Canaanites.

Here was another thread on this topic:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=237213

Nita

 

[RobbyS]

The Purpose of the Old Testament was to teach us and prepare the way for Christ.

Abraham showed he was willing to sacrifice his son but God saved him from that, in the short term by giving a ram and in the long term by giving his Son as the perfect sacrifice.

The genocides are looking forward as well to judgement day. None of those people were really killed by a sword, they were already dead in the way that is important, spiritually dead, having rejected God. No such dead person was to be allowed in the promised land.

That is looking forward to the day when we receive the new promised land, heaven. No person who rejects God will be allowed in that land. Instead that person, every person who is not one of God’s people, will be thrown into the eternal lake of fire with Satan and the AntiChrist.

There will be no mercy for them. Mercy is for those who have miraculously become one with Christ. God’s chosen, saved through nothing they could do.

The whole promised land showed how the most worthless nation in the whole world was invincible with God on their side.

It displays God’s majesty, proves that there is indeed a God and indeed who God is. So that people can see that, be brought to repentance and eternal life.

It’s a warning, and a promise all rolled into one.

Our gracious and merciful God has done this and thus revealed himself in order to save people, but the response of many is only that it is all unbelievable and not fair.

That’s true, one cannot believe without the supernatural help of the Spirit, and if what was fair was done, everyone would get eternity in the Lake of Fire. Praise the Lord he is not fair.

JJ

I agree with the message, but would warn the casual reader not to read it literally but as St. Augustine learned , with Christ as the key. Human language gives us but an approximation of God’s meaning.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

Infants dont reject god and yet the Israelites hacked them into pieces in the name of God.

Besides isnt it true that as long as there is life there is also hope? People change. Its impossible that not one tribe-member would change his opinion on God had God revealed himself to them.

It would be better if you actually read the Old Testament before coming up with objections to God.

Anyone who turned to God in faith who was inhabiting the promised land was saved. For instance Rahab and her entire family.

Even the Gibeonites, though their faith was certainly not what we would call perfect were saved.

In the end, those who died were those who rejected God and instead of putting their faith in him, they put their faith in their own might. Fortified cities, armies, and weapons. And those false gods let them down. They received the fruit of their faith, death at the hands of the one true God.

JJ

 

[theAuthor]

Jolly Joe, +1!

 

[porthos11]

True but I don’t understand how a loving and merciful God could order genocides. Please help.

The other posters have given excellent responses, but I would re-emphasize this point: God owns all lives. He is well within his rights to take them away, wholesale, if it be his will. It was his will at that time, and at that place. That includes the infants.

Was it unjust? No. Since God is all-good, then everything he does is good and just. This includes the genocides.

We, on the other hand, are bound by the moral laws God gave us in the New Covenant. We, therefore, do not have that luxury.

 

[theAuthor]

An excellent distinction in the difference in our morality vs God’s. Since God is the law-giver, He apparently is not bound by the same laws that He gives us. Why is that?

Should not the laws which God gives us reflect or define what is good? eg we are told to forgive and that God will forgive us, we are told to be Holy as God is Holy, etc. But with genocide it is OK for God to order it, but not for us.

So is goodness simply doing God’s will, regardless whether it might seem to be objectively moral or not, because God created us? So doing “good” is doing the will of the all-Powerful God, whether that will is to love our neighbour or kill him. It seems more dependent on God’s power than His goodness, no?

 

[Howl]

Seriously! What is up with the God of the Old Testament and how does one reconcile Him with the God of the New Testament? The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the God of the New Testament but the God of the Old Testament just seems so much more angry and violent. I mean, he wiped out all of the earth’s population but a select family with Noah’s flood, He ordered genocides, and He even tested Abram (Abraham) by asking him to sacrifice his son to Him. This is all just so confusing to me. How does one reconcile the seemingly violent and angry God of the Old Testament with the merciful and loving God of the New Testament? Did God change (even though the Bible says God is unchanging) or did we change or what?

Hey Holly…

I used to have this same problem, but then I was lucky enough to start studying the Hebrew scriptures with some Jewish friends. From there, I started a study of Kabbalah and now, I believe that I finally have a better understanding of ‘the Old Testament’ (I hate that phrase).

You have to realize that the Hebrew scriptures are written to those who understand Hebrew. There is a lot of math contained within Hebrew scriptures and many words don’t translate terribly well into English.

There is a story in the Zohar about how Torah is like a maiden in a tower. If she knows that a man who loves her is outside waiting, she will sometimes look out and give him a peak. Nobody will notice that but the man who loves her and who is completely devoted to her. In other words, the Hebrew scriptures are full of mystery and very few people truly understand what is going on. However, if you are diligent, Torah will reveal its beauty and splendour!

It is important to remember that God always provided people with an out. Take the story of Noah and the flood. God commanded Noah and his sons to build a huge ark. It was around 450 feet long! After building the ark, Noah had to gather hundreds and hundreds of animals. No biblical scholar can argue that Noah and his sons accomplished this feet in a matter of days. Even using modern technology, building a boat of that size would take a very long time. And stocking it with the animals and the food would have taken even longer. Mankind could have repented throughout this entire period, but wickedness prevailed.

You also have to look at the bible using critical eyes. Let’s say that your next door neighbour started building a really big boat. Do you think you’d ask him some questions about it? Noah and his actions would have attracted some attention - even though the bible doesn’t expressly say this. Rabbinic literature suggests that Noah did in fact warn people, yet the wicked still would not change their ways.

 

[Contarini]

Seriously! What is up with the God of the Old Testament and how does one reconcile Him with the God of the New Testament? The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the God of the New Testament but the God of the Old Testament just seems so much more angry and violent. I mean, he wiped out all of the earth’s population but a select family with Noah’s flood, He ordered genocides, and He even tested Abram (Abraham) by asking him to sacrifice his son to Him. This is all just so confusing to me. How does one reconcile the seemingly violent and angry God of the Old Testament with the merciful and loving God of the New Testament? Did God change (even though the Bible says God is unchanging) or did we change or what?

Funny. It’s the “God of the New Testament” who condemns people to eternal fire. That’s not in the OT. Some of the most powerful language about God’s love and mercy is in the OT. I don’t get this OT/NT contrast. I don’t mean to be patronizing, but have you actually read the Bible in its entirety, or are you just reacting to certain elements of the OT?

The God of the Bible is a God of both wrath and mercy, if you take the Bible literally. Christian theology has made it clear (and I think this is well supported by the Bible itself) that the wrath is metaphorical (though representing something real and terrifying, namely God’s blazing holiness) and the mercy is fundamental. But identifying the mercy with the NT and the wrath with the OT is, in my opinion, not only bad theology but just plain bad reading.

Edwin

 

[Holly3278]

Funny. It’s the “God of the New Testament” who condemns people to eternal fire. That’s not in the OT. Some of the most powerful language about God’s love and mercy is in the OT. I don’t get this OT/NT contrast. I don’t mean to be patronizing, but have you actually read the Bible in its entirety, or are you just reacting to certain elements of the OT?

The God of the Bible is a God of both wrath and mercy, if you take the Bible literally. Christian theology has made it clear (and I think this is well supported by the Bible itself) that the wrath is metaphorical (though representing something real and terrifying, namely God’s blazing holiness) and the mercy is fundamental. But identifying the mercy with the NT and the wrath with the OT is, in my opinion, not only bad theology but just plain bad reading.

Edwin

Edwin, I will readily admit that I have never read the Bible in its entirety though I have read much of the Bible.

 

[theAuthor]

Funny. It’s the “God of the New Testament” who condemns people to eternal fire.

That’s a good point.

However, as for the rest of it, I can understand why people make the contrast. The OT contains stories of genocide. Not just one, but a few, in the past tense. ie not a threat, but a record of what happened.

In the NT we have one couple zapped to death in Acts, and that’s it. The rest is threats. Vague threats, too. Lake of fire, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just a vague picture of punishment which man has represented in art as a guess.

I think it is also valid that Jesus moved the goalposts from “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”, to “love your enemies, do good to those who do you harm.” Surley this reflects on God’s nature too, or it seems to.

Perhaps we are like those living before the flood came, eating, drinking and being merry, and not so mindful of God’s wrath as His love and Jesus’ redemption of us.

Some would argue that the things happening in the world today (natural disasters, soldiers being killed, terrorism) are God’s punishment, but I don’t know what to make of that, personally.

 

[bhuntfl]

Hi Holly,

This topic (OT genocide) has come up at least two other times in the past couple weeks. The following is from a previous post I made, with a little editing:

Considering the physical circumstances of Israel at the time (nomadic, lack of resources, etc.), incarceration in jail was not an option. How were the wicked to be dealt with? This was a **whole culture **that needed to be destroyed because of its wickedness.
[As a weak comparison, think of the polygamist enclave in Texas, where the behavior is engrained in the culture itself. Altho, in comparison, what the Texans were doing is very mild – and would not even have been necessarily considered wrong in OT days!!]

The Canaanites were being destroyed (and the land given to Israel) because their wickedness was “complete”. (Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.)
Here is some of what the culture consisted of:
Incest, homosexual actions, bestiality. (Leviticus 18)
Human sacrifice of children, witchcraft, mediums, wizards, (Leviticus 19 & 20)

How does God, or anyone, deal justly with such an evil culture?
How can **good people **dwell in such a nation/culture? **How is justice done for them **as they live and try to raise children in conformity with God’s values?

A just society upholds what is good and protects people from what is harmful. It establishes punishments for harmful acts.

We may not be able to see when a culture has become so depraved, it’s laws and customs actually upholding that depravity, it’s ways so engrained in the inhabitants that the only solution is to destroy it,— but God can.
We can know and trust that when God ordered the destruction of the Canaanites, it was not only what was best for the Jews (and future generations here on earth), but also what was best for the Canaanites.

Here was another thread on this topic:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=237213

Nita

I really do not like any of these posts in answer to why we seem to read of two Gods in scripture-- the angry one and the loving one. First, these posts treat the examples cited in the old testament-- Jewish Scripture-- as historical fact, not allowing for legend , allegory or metaphore. Is it not possible, even probable that many of these stories, although written by scribes inspired by the one true God, we’re meant to teach and bring and hold a people who were primitive to belief in one true God. There was a constant pull in ancient times to fall back to relying on many different Gods; gods who “existed” to give people “stuff” like rain, harvests, victory over enemies, etc. faith in one god was a hard thing to hold to when things went wrong. One way of reading Hebrew Scripture is to see it as an attempt to draw people to the one god and hold them there, observing commands, which, aside from any morality as we now know it, we’re for social harmony in tribal society. If a leader told a people they must do something, those peoples might tell easily ignor him. However, if they believed the “commands”, “laws” we’re given by a supernatural power-- as they were used to understanding the power go gods, they would think differently.

All in all, we do believe God always had the intention to bring us closer to Him, but as we now understand it somewhat-- slowly. Our God seems to be a patient, long range planner. His ways have always never been our ways. For God to be cruel and loving at the same time would be contradictory to His nature. ( remember the old question of whether God could make a rock He could not lift? )

We Catholics tend to limit our reading of Hebrew Scripture as if God’s ONLY purpose in ancient times was to foretell of our redemption. Clearly, the old testament does that. But it should, in my view, be read with more understanding of its multiple purposes.

Our one true, eternal God is pure love. He cannot condem people to so-called “Hell” for no reason. He created us out of pure love, but love cannot be commanded. So it was, He gave us the choice to accept or reject, ergo our free will. To not have done so , would in itself be a contradiction of His nature.

We condem ourselves by turning from God to self-- a good definition of the “process” of sin.

I don’t think any one sin condemns us, although it separates us fron God’ s always present love. But by entering into a “process” of sin, I.e., continually rejecting God’s love, we ourselves make it impossible to be united with Him.