What's "wrong" with being a contemplative in today's Church?

[JimR-OCDS]

hermitcrab

The good news here is that there are many orders who will take complete newcomers to religious life well over that age.

See

consecrated-life.org/over_45.htm

for women; there must be similar for men of course…

Not necessarily. Perhaps women can adjust better after 40, than men can? I haven’t seen any orders which will take men over 40, except in special circumstances.

Jim

 

[hermitcrab]

They are there… Ask around.

And no, women don’t adjust easily; late vocations are a great problem.

 

[MH84]

I am an OCDS aspirant and will probably make my temporary promises next Fall. Anyone who thinks that a life of prayer is easy hasn’t really tried it! It is the hardest thing I have ever done! There are so many outward distractions, let alone the inward distractions. I think that Teresa of Avila wrote that the mind is like a wild horse! It is a constant battle!
Anyway, most of the people in my group are involved with the parish in some activity. We all have homes and family to take care of and some of us have jobs as well.

For most people with a vocation in a monastery, will contemplative prayer come naturally as a gift from God, or will some have to be content with meditative prayer and vocal prayer. To be honest someone with a gift of correct meditative prayer while minimising distractions would be something!

I have heard contemplative prayer can be almost dangerous if it focuses too much to self and not to God.

 

[hermitcrab]

Very well expressed…

If you enter a monastery/convent, your vows will be within that Order.

Thus you will be formed therein by experienced Brothers/Sisters. Who have all been through all this.

The leaning/pull to contemplative prayer will be discerned by them. And thus developed in that setting.

A long lifetime process always.

The vocation is the gift; the willingness and humility to learn and be formed is our responsibility then. And our joy and privilege…

That willingness is a part of the calling.

The exact content of the day etc will be in accord with the Rule of the Order.

And there really is only one way to find this out; by entering.

Yes, contemplative prayer can indeed become too turned in and unhealthy if it is not a part of, say a monastic day.

Many who decide that they want to fly alone and become reclusive hermits become so self absorbed that prayer becomes sterile.

A book that will help is the Sr Mary Francis, A right to be merry; although a Poor Clare the same principles apply

But nothing save leaping in feet first will really settle the question!!

And the actual choice of monastery is thus vital.

Sr Mary says that neglecting to develop and cherish a vocation is the worst sin there is…

For most people with a vocation in a monastery, will contemplative prayer come naturally as a gift from God, or will some have to be content with meditative prayer and vocal prayer. To be honest someone with a gift of correct meditative prayer while minimising distractions would be something!

I have heard contemplative prayer can be almost dangerous if it focuses too much to self and not to God.

 

[krazykatlady]

Since the goal of contemplative prayer is union with God, then focusing on oneself would probably take you in the opposite direction, away from God. During my time of contemplative prayer I try to focus on Him alone. It isn’t easy. The mind races around in many different directions. St. Teresa of Avila is a wonderful teacher of the contemplative life, and she says that this is to be expected, especially in the early stages of a life of prayer. I guess there are a few blessed souls to whom all this comes naturally, but for most of us it is a struggle.

The contemplative life also involves getting rid of all the sins and imperfections in our lives which interfere with union with God, so it is a matter of cooperating with Him while he helps us to do this. This isn’t easy either! It is very easy to say that “I want do do your will, Lord,” but when the rubber hits the road it is another matter all together.

The Carmelite vocation also calls for praying for priests, for the Church, and for the world. It also calls for a balance between being a Martha and a Mary.

 

[hermitcrab]

Dear Jim… Thank you.

I realised how little I know re the male side of all this, so started seeking; in no way trying to contradict you, I assure you!

See…

christdesert.org/Seeking_God/Vocational_Information/index.html

This seems a general thing now with the shortage of vocations.
This is a strong and sound order, with a realistic aand practical appraisal… and a beautiful setting.

hermitcrab

Not necessarily. Perhaps women can adjust better after 40, than men can? I haven’t seen any orders which will take men over 40, except in special circumstances.

Jim

 

[MTD]

For most people with a vocation in a monastery, will contemplative prayer come naturally as a gift from God, or will some have to be content with meditative prayer and vocal prayer.

Frs. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange and Thomas Dubay, two eminent authors on prayer and/or the spiritual life, hold that contemplative prayer is in the normal way of sanctity; in other words, everyone, if faithful to God’s grace, will be gifted with it.

If you want to learn more about that, I highly recommend:

Christian Perfection and Contemplation by Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP
Fire Within by Fr. Thomas Dubay

Maria

 

[JimR-OCDS]

hermitcrab

the first paragarph in your post says;

First let’s get down to the ground rules. Are you between twenty-two and forty years of age? Through long experience we have learned that the older a person is the more difficult is the transition from being in the “outside” world to life in the monastery. We do accept candidates who are over forty, but they must go through a longer discernment process than younger men.

It depends on the monestary. As I said, earlier, they will take older men under certain circumstances, and a longer formation as stated above is part of it. Some orders like the Trappist, the physical demands for a novice are too great for a man over 40, but there are exceptions to everything.

In my experience with three monestaries, 2 will not take men over 40, unless they were already in some religious vocation prior and are in good physical health. The other one will take men over 40 and are less ridged, but they are a new order of monks and currently only have 3 professed monks.

The bottom line is, each individual has to find out for themselves, if this is what God is calling them to. If so, the door will be swung wide open and the person will be accepted.

Jim

 

[hermitcrab]

Small question… Do you see prayer , contemplative or otherwise, as something to be learned from books, as an intellectual process?

Frs. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange and Thomas Dubay, two eminent authors on prayer and/or the spiritual life, hold that contemplative prayer is in the normal way of sanctity; in other words, everyone, if faithful to God’s grace, will be gifted with it.

If you want to learn more about that, I highly recommend:

Christian Perfection and Contemplation by Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP
Fire Within by Fr. Thomas Dubay

Maria

 

[hermitcrab]

Empathy with you… yet if we truly trust Jesus with our lives, pray deeply, He will show us what He wants us to do with our lives then, how to achieve a balance between action and prayer.

There is a kind of cult of contemplative prayer around these days; they praise eg a pagan cult who sit on a mountain sipping wine and looking down ( in all ways…) on the people in the valley.

That is not Jesus.

The Cross is rooted in earth, reaches to heaven, and stretches its arms wide to embrace all.

As Jesus asks each who gives all to Him.

And we change as we grow also… maybe someone who has been very active in feeding the homeless is now sick or old and cannot to that work. so she knits beautiful things as she prays alone, to sell to raise funds to feed the homeless, and becomes a holy woman of Jesus, a prayer warrior in her agedness, as many Nuns do.
Raising awareness also to others who can take up that work she cannot do.
Because how can we set ourselves so apart when children are dying of hunger?

There is a balance in each life… and “even” contemplative Nuns work very hard physically; all the Orders have “parlours” where the needy come, all care also for each other.

Yet their Rule ensures they have time apart for deep personal prayer.

Yes, Jesus drew apart on a mountain ot pray… but He did so to gain renewal for His ministry also. It was not a permanent thing.

Everyone needs to do that; maybe find a retreat house etc to be at one day a month in peace…

The true contemplative is one who has learned to weave prayer in all they do when alone.
Never anything you can learn from books…

"I’m saddened by the message I feel nowadays that if you are a Mary you are doing little for God and Brethern, somehow not living up to Matthew 25.

Hopefully my impression is incorrect. Perhaps the person who sits in front of the tabernacle or monstrance “looking at God while God looks back in an exchange of love”; or the Catholic who prays the beads or the Liturgy of the Hours; or the person who listens to God speak during Lectio with the Scriptures, instead of rushing about in active ministry, is still following a worthwhile Christian Way. Are we still pleasing our Lord, or will He say that He does not know us because He never saw us at the soup kitchen, the bed of the elderly, or holding a sign in front of the abortion clinic? What do you think?

 

[MTD]

Small question… Do you see prayer , contemplative or otherwise, as something to be learned from books, as an intellectual process?

No, I don’t. Of course, I do believe that it must be learned to a certain extent from either books or an experienced teacher otherwise it can degrade into meaningless empty-mindedness. However, prayer is primarily about love. We want to know God because we love Him and this knowledge in turn causes us to love Him. I quote from the Christian Perfection and Contemplation I mentioned in a previous post:

Evidently prayer is more than an act of the intellect like a simple study. Speculative souls, curious about the things of God, are not for that reason contemplative souls or prayerful souls. In their reflections they may experience a pleasure far surpassing that of the sense; but this pleasure often comes merely from their knowledge, and not from charity. They are moved by a love of knowledge much more than by the love of God. This pleasure sometimes increases their pride and self-love. Study and speculation do not necessarily suppose the state of grace and charity, and do not always assist in developing this state. Prayer, on the contrary, must proceed from the love of God and must end in Him. The contemplation of God is desired out of love for Him, and the contemplation of His goodness and beauty increases love. Moreover, love of God in this life, as we have seen, is more perfect than the knowledge of God. Charity is more perfect than faith, because knowledge in a way draws God down to us and, as it were, reduces Him to the measure of our ideas; whereas love draws us toward God, elevates us to Him, unites us to Him. And, as long as we are deprived of the beatific vision, it is charity especially which unites us to God and constitutes the bond of perfection. Consequently this virtue must have the first place in our soul. The soul must lift itself to God on the wings of the intellect and the will aided by grace. Therefore prayer is a movement of supernatural knowledge and love.

As St. Teresa of Avila says, “Contemplative prayer in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with Him who we know loves us.”

I do think a solid prayer life must be supported by continuous spiritual reading. St. Teresa of Avila’s constitutions for her nuns command one hour each day in spiritual reading! St. Teresa did not believe in wishy-washy prayer.

Maria

 

[hermitcrab]

Not so.

Prayer is fed by Jesus not by men. I teach contemplative prayer with no books save the Bible to those who have no book learning or sometimes not even the ability to read deeply…

If what you say were true then there would be an elitism in prayer and faith?

" do think a solid prayer life must be supported by continuous spiritual reading. St. Teresa of Avila’s constitutions for her nuns command one hour each day in spiritual reading! St. Teresa did not believe in wishy-washy prayer. "

Agreed, if it be the Bible…

Wishy washy? In the sole company of the Lord Jesus Christ?

No, I don’t. Of course, I do believe that it must be learned to a certain extent from either books or an experienced teacher otherwise it can degrade into meaningless empty-mindedness.

This use of another’s 'words contradicts your first words.

Evidently prayer is more than an act of the intellect like a simple study. Speculative souls, curious about the things of God, are not for that reason contemplative souls or prayerful souls. In their reflections they may experience a pleasure far surpassing that of the sense; but this pleasure often comes merely from their knowledge, and not from charity. They are moved by a love of knowledge much more than by the love of God. This pleasure sometimes increases their pride and self-love. Study and speculation do not necessarily suppose the state of grace and charity, and do not always assist in developing this state. Prayer, on the contrary, must proceed from the love of God and must end in Him. The contemplation of God is desired out of love for Him, and the contemplation of His goodness and beauty increases love. Moreover, love of God in this life, as we have seen, is more perfect than the knowledge of God. Charity is more perfect than faith, because knowledge in a way draws God down to us and, as it were, reduces Him to the measure of our ideas; whereas love draws us toward God, elevates us to Him, unites us to Him. And, as long as we are deprived of the beatific vision, it is charity especially which unites us to God and constitutes the bond of perfection. Consequently this virtue must have the first place in our soul. The soul must lift itself to God on the wings of the intellect and the will aided by grace. Therefore prayer is a movement of supernatural knowledge and love.

As St. Teresa of Avila says, “Contemplative prayer in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with Him who we know loves us.”

I do think a solid prayer life must be supported by continuous spiritual reading. St. Teresa of Avila’s constitutions for her nuns command one hour each day in spiritual reading! St. Teresa did not believe in wishy-washy prayer.

Maria

 

[hermitcrab]

Unsubbing to be with Jesus in silence…

Because we can all talk/read about prayer and neglect to pray…

Always at the Master’s Feet in Prayer; Jesus alone is Lord and more than enough.

Blessings
It is fine to pm me; I will respond as I can.

 

[MTD]

Prayer is fed by Jesus not by men.

Of course. But Jesus uses men to teach it to some extent. He takes care of what men cannot.

I teach contemplative prayer with no books save the Bible to those who have no book learning or sometimes not even the ability to read deeply…

There you go. I said prayer should be taught be books or an experienced teacher.

Besides, for those who can’t read, they can avail themselves of souls such as yourself who are willing to teach them orally about prayer and the spiritual life.

" do think a solid prayer life must be supported by continuous spiritual reading. St. Teresa of Avila’s constitutions for her nuns command one hour each day in spiritual reading! St. Teresa did not believe in wishy-washy prayer. "

Agreed, if it be the Bible…

The Bible is included in spiritual reading, but spiritual reading is not restricted to the Bible. Besides, I’m “fan” of St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross; there’s no way you will convince me to differ from them on such important points. Have you read St. Teresa’s Life or Way of Perfection? She has some pretty pointed things to say about spiritual reading and spiritual directors.

Wishy washy? In the sole company of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Um, just take a look at some of the types of prayer in vogue today. Like Centering Prayer. Quite wishy-washy to me! And that’s what happens when a prayer life is not fed by solid reading or teaching.

Besides, I said nothing about time spent in the sole company of Jesus being wishy-washy. Look again in my previous post at my quote of St. Teresa of Avila.

Maria

 

[Michael_Heinzen]

As a former Benedictine monk (left before solemn vows, so have only six years experience but have kept in touch with the brothers) and now an Oblate of St. Benedict, the community I belonged to had an active apostolate of education, and the ordained members also worked in parishes, but the abbot would allow those with a more contemplative nature and calling to concentrate their time on less “apostolic” work, i.e. working in the orchard, printshop, on the farm, etc. This is in keeping with Benedictine spirituality --Ora et Labora (prayer and work)-- and the spirit of the Rule, which allows the abbot to discern with and guide a monk. In our community, besides the active apostolates of education and parish work, a more contemplative member lived Mathew 25 by giving of himself to his fellow monks (no easy task for either giver or receiver since monks do not leave their human eccentricities and foibles at the gate–selfishness and the demon of crabbiness roams the cloister too).

The prayer-oriented monk is also a witness simply by his presence–when seen in his habit as he walks the lane for exercise, goes to town for supplies or to a doctor appointment, he gives witness.

Regarding age (or disabilities BTW), that may be up to the individual religious community. Our community was rather open to delayed vocations. For example, we had two monks who joined later in life after their wives had passed away and their children were then adults; not too common to see a monk’s profession attended by his five children and some grandchildren too, but it does happen. The key is whether one has a genuine vocation to religious life (a shared discernment by the individual, vocation/formation director, abbot and community). Perhaps an older person would be happier to live in a senior community with close ties to, or on the grounds of, a religious community.

I agree with the comment already made that if one does not have a vocation to religious life, the individual probably will not stay. Acedia and other stresses usually take hold and sooner or later pull one out the gate. Once there was a time when persons with emotional and psychological challenges and a desire to “escape” may have persevered behind monastery and convent walls, but today there is more psychological testing and awareness to preclude “false callings.”

Also, for those who are oblates, third order, tertiaries and auxiliary affiliates of religious orders, these communities sometimes allow in-residence to one degree or another.

 

[kmabba]

The problem is that the Catholic Church hierarchy in America have chosen to give over the spiritual aspect of the faith because it takes too long. Since these mega churches serve huge numbers of parishioners, masses have become assembly line experiences. They have to move one group out quickly so the next can be in the pews at a certain hour so that when they are done, another group can come in.

Instead of adapting itself to the modern American lifestyle, the Church needs to provide the leadership necessary that resists religion in the fast lane which also emphasizes action. Masses seem mass produced now. When’s the last time your parish offered Benediction? In the Raleigh, NC diocese, only the Cathedral offers it and that only during Lent on some Fridays after the Stations!

The issue isn’t the people, the issue lies in the institution. All spiritual activities take time and the churches just don’t have it. Heaven forbid we go back to smaller parishes, even if that means not building a fancy church. Hermits in particular don’t need them and that’s part of what makes their experience unique. If the Church was willing to stop bowing to the American lifestyle, spirituality would have a chance to blossom again.

And though it might be ludicrous to think this is possible, perhaps if we had access to the churches and the chapels within them (if they even exist), we might have a place to go and pray before the Eucharist or walk the Stations on our own any time of the year. But we are kept from even doing this since they are locked down. How many churches have lauds, vepers, or matins prayer services? Not one in my diocese. For that I have to go across the street from the Cathedral to the Episcopalian Church. How many gave a daily mass at a time when working people might actually be able to attend? 8:30 in the morning or 12 noon doesn’t work for most. But it does happen to be convenient for the priest. All of these practices are vital to developing a spiritual self and it would be nice to do so with a group rather than isolated at home by yourself.

The American Church needs to step back from the abyss and realize what is happening: Roman Catholics are leaving the Church in droves looking for a more meaningful and deeper spiritual experience in the Orthodox Churches and the Episcopalian. Isn’t it kind of odd that membership in the Roman Church is dwindling in the US but it is increasing sharply among the various Orthodox churches. You’d think the boys would get the message!

 

[InLight247]

And though it might be ludicrous to think this is possible, perhaps if we had access to the churches and the chapels within them (if they even exist), we might have a place to go and pray before the Eucharist or walk the Stations on our own any time of the year. But we are kept from even doing this since they are locked down.

I guess I am really blessed that the door of my parish church opens at 8:00 a.m. and does not lock until 10:00 p.m., 7 days a week. And we have daily Mass and whole day Eucharist Adoration every Thursday!

Each of us has to take the initiative on our own spirituality.
I agree it makes big difference if we have the access to the tabernacle in the sanctuary . But on top of that, it lies in our own heart to pursuit a deeper union with God.

 

[kmabba]

Most definitely!

 

[deekod1967]

I cannot speak for those in closed religious orders, but I do not agree that contemplatives are only “Mary” seeking only to love God through prayer alone. The love of God also implies love of others through service. I always thought that contemplatives seek to become both Martha and Mary through unity with the Trinity and service of others at all times in their lives. Contemplatives have time for both prayer and also helping others - for me this is the goal of all Christians - love with God leads to love with others.

Hope this helps.

 

[DBT]

The love of God also implies love of others through service. I always thought that contemplatives seek to become both Martha and Mary through unity with the Trinity and service of others at all times in their lives.

You are absolutely right!

St. Teresa describes the pinnacle of the spiritual life (the 7th Mansion in “Interior Castle”) as the transformation in the soul, born of a life of virtue and contemplative prayer, where Martha and Mary learn to work in perfect harmony. This unity is the summit of this earthly life. All that remains for these fortunate and perfected souls is the longing for the Beatific Vision of the next life. Indeed, this longing is the focus of the final stanzas St. John of the Cross’ “Spiritual Canticle.”

Dave.