What's wrong with Christmas?

[Jimmy_B]

What’s wrong with Christmas? Has this doctrine that allows for personal interpretation of the Bible, gone too far?

I brought this up, on another thread here at CAF; that Christmas is a Catholic tradition, when discussing Sola Scriptura, or “Bible Alone” and the “Traditions of Men”. To my surprise, ok, maybe I wasn’t that surprised… a Fundamentalist Christian posted that they (Fundamentalist) actively oppose celebrating Christmas. At least he is consistent.

My questions here are -

Where in the Bible does it say that we are to celebrate Christmas?

If it’s not in the Bible, should it be done?

And finally, doesn’t the celebration of Christmas, fall under, the “Traditions of Men”?

Thank you, your thoughts?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Birth of Christ is part of our faith. Says so in the Creed.

 

[ConstantineIII]

It is a Roman Pagan holiday introduced at Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.
In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians
The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday
Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
It is a Pagan Holiday but thanks to Constantine it is now also a Catholic Holiday.

 

[JonNC]

=Jimmy B;7059197]What’s wrong with Christmas?

Hi Jimmy,
When I was a child, I thought the only problem with Christmas was that it only came once a year.

Has this doctrine that allows for personal interpretation of the Bible, gone too far?

What is the “doctrine” of personal interpretation?

I brought this up, on another thread here at CAF; that Christmas is a Catholic tradition, when discussing Sola Scriptura, or “Bible Alone” and the “Traditions of Men”. To my surprise, ok, maybe I wasn’t that surprised… a Fundamentalist Christian posted that they (Fundamentalist) actively oppose celebrating Christmas. At least he is consistent.

Are you implying that I’m not consistent?

Where in the Bible does it say that we are to celebrate Christmas?

Where does it say we should not?

If it’s not in the Bible, should it be done?

Yes.

And finally, doesn’t the celebration of Christmas, fall under, the “Traditions of Men”?

Perhaps the ways it is celebrated may be, but not the commemoration of His birth, which is fully described in OT prophecy and the NT.

Thank you, your thoughts?

The very concept and practice of sola scriptura implies that there is Tradition. Without Tradition, there is no need for SS, as there are no teachings to be held accountable to scripture.

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

The Birth of Christ is part of our faith. Says so in the Creed.

Hello ConstantineTG,

I agree, it just seems natural that a Christian would celebrate the birth of Christ and I too profess the Creed. However, I could see how some might argue that celebrating Christmas is “extra-biblical” and that it would fall under the “traditions of men” and rejected by some Protestants, who have a strict interpretation of Sola scriptura (Bible alone). After all, the tradition of celebrating the birth of Christ, Christmas, was a Catholic tradition before it was a Protestant tradition. Thank you for your post.

Your thoughts?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy,
When I was a child, I thought the only problem with Christmas was that it only came once a year.

What is the “doctrine” of personal interpretation?

Are you implying that I’m not consistent?

Where does it say we should not?

Yes.

Perhaps the ways it is celebrated may be, but not the commemoration of His birth, which is fully described in OT prophecy and the NT.

The very concept and practice of sola scriptura implies that there is Tradition. Without Tradition, there is no need for SS, as there are no teachings to be held accountable to scripture.

Jon

Jon, you’re not a Fundamentalist… I know that.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hello ConstantineTG,

I agree, it just seems natural that a Christian would celebrate the birth of Christ and I too profess the Creed. However, I could see how some might argue that celebrating Christmas is “extra-biblical” and that it would fall under the “traditions of men” and rejected by some Protestants, who have a strict interpretation of Sola scriptura (Bible alone). After all, the tradition of celebrating the birth of Christ, Christmas, was a Catholic tradition before it was a Protestant tradition. Thank you for your post.

Your thoughts?

I’d love to have them as friends, saves me a ton of money on Christmas Cards and gifts

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 2:13[/BIBLEDRB]

The angels celebrated, why shouldn’t we?

 

[Sufjon]

I think that’s an interesting question that potentially has two answers, because they way I see it, Christmas could be seen as two occasions in one. On the one hand, you have the huge commercial engine of Christmas. The Christmas industry is absolutely essential to the economy, unless it were to be replaced with something equally as potent as a commercial enterprise. From a practical perspective, this aspect of Christmas in my opinion should be celebrated. It also gives people a reason to visit family and friends. Aside from that, people do seem to be a bit friendlier around Christmas and act more like they should all year. Bottom line is that you can have Santa Claus, Christmas trees and rampant spending without religion at all. In fact, for a lot of people that’s all it is.

On the other hand, we have the religious holiday. As far that’s concerned, it could probably be argued either way (depending on your religious views), but I’ll leave that up to the folks with an opinion based on religion.

Respcetfully,
Sufjon

 

[Jimmy_B]

I think that’s an interesting question that potentially has two answers, because they way I see it, Christmas could be seen as two occasions in one. On the one hand, you have the huge commercial engine of Christmas. The Christmas industry is absolutely essential to the economy, unless it were to be replaced with something equally as potent as a commercial enterprise. From a practical perspective, this aspect of Christmas in my opinion should be celebrated. It also gives people a reason to visit family and friends. Aside from that, people do seem to be a bit friendlier around Christmas and act more like they should all year. Bottom line is that you can have Santa Claus, Christmas trees and rampant spending without religion at all. In fact, for a lot of people that’s all it is.

On the other hand, we have the religious holiday. As far that’s concerned, it could probably be argued either way (depending on your religious views), but I’ll leave that up to the folks with an opinion based on religion.

Respcetfully,
Sufjon

Hello Sufjon,

Good points. It is unfortunate that Christmas has become so commercialized and so secular for so many. You’re right and there are a lot of people who profit from Christmas. Moreover, Santa Clause is based on a real Catholic Saint, St. Nicholas of Myra, He died December 6th, 345 or 352.

Your thoughts?

 

[wwolverine]

No doubt that Christmas has become commercialized, but what is wrong in celebrating it? I wouldnt say that Cristmas should be celebrated in the way we celebrate as wit new clothes, big parties, and drinking all night long, but we should ask whyself why Jesus was born.

It was a great day when the angels even went to the shepherds and sang Glory to God in the highest ( book of Luke). The birth of Jesus was foretold in Isiah and if all the people were waitig for the birth of the King, dont you think it should be celebrated? The day Jesus was born, the biggest gift of saving mankind begane. and We should celebrate that day.

God Bless

 

[bluerose]

What bothers me is this… I have some very devout Fundamentalist Christian friends who put up a tree, give presents, make a big dinner, decorate their home, bake cookies and make candy, etc… but draw the line at going to church. Unless it happens to fall on a Sunday, but even then, I don’t believe they make a big fuss about the meaning of the day.

The mind… it is boggled…

 

[Jimmy_B]

What bothers me is this… I have some very devout Fundamentalist Christian friends who put up a tree, give presents, make a big dinner, decorate their home, bake cookies and make candy, etc… but draw the line at going to church. Unless it happens to fall on a Sunday, but even then, I don’t believe they make a big fuss about the meaning of the day.

The mind… it is boggled…

• “The mind… it is boggled”*
  **
  Yep…:whacky:

 

[Jimmy_B]

No doubt that Christmas has become commercialized, but what is wrong in celebrating it? I wouldnt say that Cristmas should be celebrated in the way we celebrate as wit new clothes, big parties, and drinking all night long, but we should ask whyself why Jesus was born.

It was a great day when the angels even went to the shepherds and sang Glory to God in the highest ( book of Luke). The birth of Jesus was foretold in Isiah and if all the people were waitig for the birth of the King, dont you think it should be celebrated? The day Jesus was born, the biggest gift of saving mankind begane. and We should celebrate that day.

God Bless

 

[Sufjon]

Hello Sufjon,

Good points. It is unfortunate that Christmas has become so commercialized and so secular for so many. You’re right and there are a lot of people who profit from Christmas. Moreover, Santa Clause is based on a real Catholic Saint, St. Nicholas of Myra, He died December 6th, 345 or 352.

Your thoughts?

Hi Jimmy B: Yeah, I knew there was a real St. Nicholas. I know the commercialization is problematic to some people, especially for those who’s focus is on the religious significance of the occasion. I sure respect that. My sense is that the true intrinsic value of such an event as the birth of Jesus can’t be diminished by anything, including all the commercialization. The practical matter is that now the commercialization is now necessary to the economy. It would be a huge blow to lose that aspect of it. I guess in my head I always kept the two things separate - the religious part and the commercial part. Aside from all that, I have some problems with commercialized Christmas that aren’t based on any of those things. The nature of what the holiday has become puts a huge strain on the poor, the sick and the lonely. The commercialized holiday season significantly intensifies their pain. It wouldn’t be that way if the occasion was strictly religious. At least I don’t think so. I am fortunate to have friends and money, but I can never enjoy Christmas seeing what it does to others. Yes, you can give to the poor, help out in soup kitchens, visit someone you think is lonely, but all the while thinking of the ones you didn’t get to. I’d rather skip the whole commercialized part of the holiday if it were possible to do so. The religious part is fine with me.

Thanks,
Sufjon

 

[Araninski]

Hey guys

First of all no offense intended with anyone’s believes.

What’s wrong with Christmas?

In Christmas we are supposed to be celebrating Jesus birthday, the day He was born. Christmas is celebrated on the 25 of December. There’s a big problem here. Jesus wasn’t born on the 25 of December, in fact if someone reads correctly one can determine more or less when Jesus was born, and most evidence point out unto mid September.

Now the second problem which is far greater,the 25 of December is the birthday of the god of the Sun. To me this is enough to not celebrate Christmas on the 25 of December, because it is pagan, now besides that Christmas is based on the winter solstice, which was also pagan, which was celebrated on the 25 of December for the god of Sun.

Sources:

“Mithra Sol Invictus , December 25 was Mithras’ birthday (or festival [Survivals of Roman Religions p. 150]) before it was Jesus’.”

ancienthistory.about.com/od/holidaysfestivals/a/solsticeceleb_4.htm

The gods of the Sun all of them were born on the (around) winter solstice because all of them are the same. Their names got confused when,God confused the languages, because of the Tower of Babylon.

BTW,It is believed that Jesus was born on Sukkot, the feast of tabernacles.

Here is a good explanation: hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.html

God bless

 

[Sufjon]

Hey guys

Now the second problem which is far greater,the 25 of December is the birthday of the god of the Sun. To me this is enough to not celebrate Christmas on the 25 of December, because it is pagan, now besides that Christmas is based on the winter solstice, which was also pagan, which was celebrated on the 25 of December for the god of Sun.

God bless

Hi Araninski: These are great points and insofar as I know you are correct. Since Christmas isn’t likely to get moved anytime soon, there may be a way to look at it that might make the pagan things easier for anyone concerned about that aspect of it. I’d look at it this way. If there is a God and Jesus was God among us, then He is the God of the Sun and the God of the winter solstice as well as the God everything else that exists. So His birthday could be celebrated anytime His followers please, I suppose. Does that work? Just a suggestion.

Respectfully,
Sufjon

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by Sufjon

Hi Araninski: These are great points and insofar as I know you are correct. Since Christmas isn’t likely to get moved anytime soon, there may be a way to look at it that might make the pagan things easier for anyone concerned about that aspect of it. I’d look at it this way. If there is a God and Jesus was God among us, then He is the God of the Sun and the God of the winter solstice as well as the God everything else that exists. So His birthday could be celebrated anytime His followers please, I suppose. Does that work? Just a suggestion.

Respectfully,
Sufjon

Hi Sufjon

Why do you have to wait for it to be moved, just because it isn’t mainstream you can’t celebrate it? The world didn’t knew God anyway. Sure our Elohim (God) Yahweh is the God of everything , but the traditions and ways of the other cultures we must not learn, we must not worship God as the other people did or do (would you worship like the Hindus, for example, their gods are gods of things too, so is our God, is God of all things it should be alright to worship like them?..), God punished the Jews because of this.

Jeremiah 10:2
"This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the gentiles or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the gentiles are terrified by them.”

Deuteronomy 12:29-31
"The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land,and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.
“You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.”

Obviously we celebrate things innocently without knowing what we are doing other than knowing today Jesus was born (though He wasn’t truly born on December 25), and innocently don’t see how we are celebrating Him. I used to celebrate Christmas but now that I know the truth, I got rid of that pagan tradition.

Last but not least…

Jeremiah 16:19
“O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and [things] wherein [there is] no profit.”

I pray for all Churches who profess Jesus as it is, to celebrate in the ways God commanded us. The feasts the Lord gave us are important things we should observe because Jesus was offered as the Passover Lamb on Passover. The First-fruits (Pentecost) were the first-fruits of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles. And now we have left Rosh Hashana (Feast of Trumpets), Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) and Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). All of this are to be fulfilled as Passover and Pentecost were fulfilled.

Peace of Yahshua be unto us.

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufjon

Why do you have to wait for it to be moved, just because it isn’t mainstream you can’t celebrate it? The world didn’t knew God anyway. Sure our Elohim (God) Yahweh is the God of everything , but the traditions and ways of the other cultures we must not learn, we must not worship God as the other people did or do (would you worship like the Hindus, for example, their gods are gods of things too, so is our God, is God of all things it should be alright to worship like them?..), God punished the Jews because of this.

Jeremiah 10:2
"This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the gentiles or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the gentiles are terrified by them.”

Deuteronomy 12:29-31
"The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land,and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.
“You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.”

Obviously we celebrate things innocently without knowing what we are doing other than knowing today Jesus was born (though He wasn’t truly born on December 25), and innocently don’t see how we are celebrating Him. I used to celebrate Christmas but now that I know the truth, I got rid of that pagan tradition.

Last but not least…

Jeremiah 16:19
“O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and [things] wherein [there is] no profit.”

I pray for all Churches who profess Jesus as it is, to celebrate in the ways God commanded us. The feasts the Lord gave us are important things we should observe because Jesus was offered as the Passover Lamb on Passover. The First-fruits (Pentecost) were the first-fruits of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles. And now we have left Rosh Hashana (Feast of Trumpets), Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) and Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). All of this are to be fulfilled as Passover and Pentecost were fulfilled.

Peace of Yahshua be unto us.

Hi Araninski: I guess it’s a bit different for me due to my lack of religious perspective. I think it’s all the same God, just different people calling it different things. If Christians want to move Christmas they have every right to. My point was I think they could celebrate it anytime they like, including 12/25. As for the Hindus - I see people on this site make reference to them from time to time, but I like to point out that they worship one God too, and called it a Trinity about 1,000 years before Christians took up a similar term. Of course their word (Trimurti) for it is not in English, hence it’s not that obvious to westerners that it means Trinity. Anyway, I have no say on the matter about Christmas and how to celebrate it.

THanks Araninski,
Sufjon

 

[JoellaFaith]

it is suppose to be about Jesus and virgin mary most of the world thinks it about santa and presents though

 

[Bluegoat]

Many Fundamentalists are Biblical literalists, and that transfers over to the way they understand the need to celebrate Christ’s birth “on the real day”. It is the same attitude essentially being applied.

Of course this was not all that important to the early Christians, or really up until the Enlightenment. Christ was born, and that is what is important, not on which calendar day. Really, a calendar is a man made way of marking time, that is all. Early Christians thought it was as, or more, important to do things in ways that emphasized their meaning. After all, if the exact day of things happening is so important, why don’t we have a fixed date for Easter? Or is the symbolism of the Resurrection being on Sunday more important that the numerical date? Do we lose something by it not being on the numerical date? (This is not as obvious as it may seem to some - there was a heresy that occurred over this issue.)

The thing is, early Christians did not think like post-Enlightenment Westerners, nor like 21st century Americans. Insisting that they ought to have is rather futile, and really the only one we could implicate would be God for the mistake of mis-timing the Incarnation!