What's wrong with Christmas?

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JoellaFaith said:
it is suppose to be about Jesus and virgin mary most of the world thinks it about santa and presents though
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I think a lot of it has do with the type of parents, children have and whether or not one actually practices their faith. For example, if you’re the type of Catholic, or Christian that attends Church every week, then Jesus would be the primary focus during Christmas. Then again, He would be the focus in your life. So, the lack of Christ in Christmas is actually the lack of Christ in one’s life.

Your thoughts?
 
Bluegoat said:
Many Fundamentalists are Biblical literalists, and that transfers over to the way they understand the need to celebrate Christ’s birth “on the real day”. It is the same attitude essentially being applied.

Of course this was not all that important to the early Christians, or really up until the Enlightenment. Christ was born, and that is what is important, not on which calendar day. Really, a calendar is a man made way of marking time, that is all. Early Christians thought it was as, or more, important to do things in ways that emphasized their meaning. After all, if the exact day of things happening is so important, why don’t we have a fixed date for Easter? Or is the symbolism of the Resurrection being on Sunday more important that the numerical date? Do we lose something by it not being on the numerical date? (This is not as obvious as it may seem to some - there was a heresy that occurred over this issue.)

The thing is, early Christians did not think like post-Enlightenment Westerners, nor like 21st century Americans. Insisting that they ought to have is rather futile, and really the only one we could implicate would be God for the mistake of mis-timing the Incarnation!
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Liturgical Seasons, Feast Days (celebrating Saints) and Holy Days of Obligation have been part of Catholicism in one form or another, from the beginning and documented since the time of Justin Martyr (born 100 A.D.). Today’s, Catholic Liturgical Calendar came out of Vatican II.
The Old Testament mentions the Jewish calendar, in Leviticus 23.
Leviticus 23:1,2, 4-6
The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and tell them: The following are the festivals of the LORD, my feast days, which you shall celebrate with a sacred assembly… "These, then, are the festivals of the LORD which you shall celebrate at their proper time with a sacred assembly. The Passover of the LORD falls on the fourteenth day of the first month, at the evening twilight. The fifteenth day of this month is the LORD’S feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

The Encaenia, or the Feast of the Dedication of the Temple is mentioned in the Gospel of St. John. This feast was instituted by Judas Machabeus , see -1 Maccabees 4:59 (O.T.)****

John 10:22
The feast of the Dedication was then taking place in Jerusalem. It was winter.
1 Maccabees 4:59
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Liturgical Seasons, Feast Days (celebrating Saints) and Holy Days of Obligation have been part of Catholicism in one form or another, from the beginning and documented since the time of Justin Martyr (born 100 A.D.). Today’s, Catholic Liturgical Calendar came out of Vatican II.
The Old Testament mentions the Jewish calendar, in Leviticus 23.
Leviticus 23:1,2, 4-6
The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and tell them: The following are the festivals of the LORD, my feast days, which you shall celebrate with a sacred assembly… "These, then, are the festivals of the LORD which you shall celebrate at their proper time with a sacred assembly. The Passover of the LORD falls on the fourteenth day of the first month, at the evening twilight. The fifteenth day of this month is the LORD’S feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

The Encaenia, or the Feast of the Dedication of the Temple is mentioned in the Gospel of St. John. This feast was instituted by Judas Machabeus , see -1 Maccabees 4:59 (O.T.)****

John 10:22
The feast of the Dedication was then taking place in Jerusalem. It was winter.
1 Maccabees 4:59
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.
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I’m sorry, I don’t understand how this is meant to relate to what I said. I haven’t any beef with the liturgical calendar - in fact, I prefer to use an older one than is used in most Catholic parishes…
 
Bluegoat said:
I’m sorry, I don’t understand how this is meant to relate to what I said. I haven’t any beef with the liturgical calendar - in fact, I prefer to use an older one than is used in most Catholic parishes…
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I guess I misunderstood what you meant by,* “this was not all that important to the early Christians, or really up until the Enlightenment”* . Thank you. 🙂
 
There are some goofy groups like Church of Christ (I had a friend in this cult) who don’t celebrate it and obviously JW’s don’t, but then again they’re not Christians either :p…

But I am a little confused about this thread. Who said there was anything wrong with Christmas? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If it ain’t bein’ called wrong, don’t worry 'bout it! 😛
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
There are some goofy groups like Church of Christ (I had a friend in this cult) who don’t celebrate it and obviously JW’s don’t, but then again they’re not Christians either :p…

But I am a little confused about this thread. Who said there was anything wrong with Christmas? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If it ain’t bein’ called wrong, don’t worry 'bout it! 😛
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This all started with a discussion that I had with a Fundamentalist Christian on another thread here at CAF, who said that his Church was “actively opposed to Christmas”. Can you believe that? He was off-topic there, so I asked the question here. 🙂
 
If he thought the Catholic Church is opposed to Christmas in any way, shape, or form, he’s on crack LOL:p:confused: Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, doesn’t get more Catholic than that! 🙂
Jimmy_B said:
This all started with a discussion that I had with a Fundamentalist Christian on another thread here at CAF, who said that his Church was “actively opposed to Christmas”. Can you believe that? He was off-topic there, so I asked the question here. 🙂
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
If he thought the Catholic Church is opposed to Christmas in any way, shape, or form, he’s on crack LOL:p:confused: Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, doesn’t get more Catholic than that! 🙂
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No… He said that his church was opposed to Christmas, not the Catholic Church…
 
Rightlydivide said:
At least have the decency to talk about me BEHIND my back…
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Shhhh… quite, I think I hear him coming 😊

I never mentioned your user name or the previous thread title. I don’t re-post quotes from other posters here, on other threads. I just start a new discussion, on a new thread when one seems to be going off-topic. But, now that you’re here, welcome, what do have to say? 🙂
 
Jimmy_B said:
[What’s wrong with Christmas? Has this doctrine that allows for personal interpretation of the Bible, gone too far?
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I brought this up, on another thread here at CAF; that Christmas is a Catholic tradition, when discussing Sola Scriptura, or “Bible Alone” and the “Traditions of Men”. To my surprise, ok, maybe I wasn’t that surprised… a Fundamentalist Christian posted that they (Fundamentalist) actively oppose celebrating Christmas. At least he is consistent.

My questions here are -

Where in the Bible does it say that we are to celebrate Christmas?

If it’s not in the Bible, should it be done?

And finally, doesn’t the celebration of Christmas, fall under, the “Traditions of Men”?

Thank you, your thoughts?
  1. It does not say we are to celebrate Christmas. However, special days with religious significance are part of scripture. As such I advise that people should not judge others too harshly on these matters.
  2. Not everything we do is in the Bible. Its 2000 years later. The practice then should not be contrary to scripture. For example, youth directors are not in scripture. But teachers are and the point is the principle.
  3. Yes, it does fall under the traditions of men specifically because it originally does not have Christian origins.
    A lot of people get more worked up about it than I do. Over 70 percent of the world is unsaved, at least. I would spend less time worrying about periphial matters and more on personal evangelism. That is what I tell people when the topic comes up. However, our church does not celebrate it and neither do I.
 
Rightlydivide said:
  1. It does not say we are to celebrate Christmas. However, special days with religious significance are part of scripture. As such I advise that people should not judge others too harshly on these matters.
  2. Not everything we do is in the Bible. Its 2000 years later. The practice then should not be contrary to scripture. For example, youth directors are not in scripture. But teachers are and the point is the principle.
  3. Yes, it does fall under the traditions of men specifically because it originally does not have Christian origins.
    A lot of people get more worked up about it than I do. Over 70 percent of the world is unsaved, at least. I would spend less time worrying about periphial matters and more on personal evangelism. That is what I tell people when the topic comes up. However, our church does not celebrate it and neither do I.
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What does # 3 mean?
**
“Yes, it does fall under the traditions of men specifically because it originally does not have Christian origins”

Are you somehow implying that Catholics are not Christian? Because, the Christian (Catholic) tradition of celebrating Christmas is older than any Protestant denomination… right? And, how can the Birth of Christ not have “Christian origins”?

Maybe I just misunderstood #3. Help me with this one please. Thank you.
 
To each his own. I love Christmas. I’m not a fan of the commercialization of it, but the actual Christian holiday, love it.
Jimmy_B said:
No… He said that his church was opposed to Christmas, not the Catholic Church…
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Jimmy_B said:
What does # 3 mean?
**
*"*Yes, it does fall under the traditions of men specifically because it originally does not have Christian origins"

Are you somehow implying that Catholics are not Christian? Because, the Christian (Catholic) tradition of celebrating Christmas is older than any Protestant denomination… right? And, how can the Birth of Christ not have “Christian origins”?

Maybe I just misunderstood #3. Help me with this one please. Thank you.
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Natalis Invicti
The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont’s epoch-making “Textes et Monuments” etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. Mommsen (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, 12, p. 338) has collected the evidence for the feast, which reached its climax of popularity under Aurelian in 274. Filippo del Torre in 1700 first saw its importance; it is marked, as has been said, without addition in Philocalus’ Calendar.
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Catholic Encyclopedia
 
Rightlydivide said:
Catholic Encyclopedia
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That wasn’t the Catholic/Christian tradition of Christmas that were describing, it was just one explanation for the date. Now that all Christians agree that Charismas should be celebrated on December 25th, why not celebrate it?
 
Jimmy_B said:
That wasn’t the Catholic/Christian tradition of Christmas that were describing, it was just one explanation for the date. Now that all Christians agree that Charismas should be celebrated on December 25th, why not celebrate it?
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All Christians that celebrate Christmas you should say.
Its origins are complicated and contain both Christian, pagan, and unknown sources of traditions. Much of it is shrouded in mystery.
Scripture itself does not teach that we should celebrate it but it also gives us guidance to not be overly harsh on people who do.
I have answered the question, you may not care for my answer, but I have answered it.
 
Rightlydivide said:
All Christians that celebrate Christmas you should say.
Its origins are complicated and contain both Christian, pagan, and unknown sources of traditions. Much of it is shrouded in mystery.
Scripture itself does not teach that we should celebrate it but it also gives us guidance to not be overly harsh on people who do.
I have answered the question, you may not care for my answer, but I have answered it.
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Scripture itself does not teach that we should celebrate it

And, it doesn’t say in Scripture that you shouldn’t or that you can’t celebrate Christmas either, so why is it an issue?
 
As far as my limited understanding goes, the feast of “Sol Invictus” or “the unconquered sun” was celebrated because it was the date where the Romans calculated that the days began to get longer again.

The Church merely converted, or maybe better put as “baptized”, the feast day and changed the meaning of “the unconquered sun” into “the unconquered Son.” It was immediately preceeded by a anticipatory season called “Advent” where the focus was on the immanent Parousia of Christ.

I find it funny that I still see many crosses on many Fundamentalist churches, yet technically, the cross is in fact pagan in origin. Jews did not crucify people. This particular type of capital punishment was, as far as I know, invented by the Romans.

Christ essentially “baptized” the cross by dying on it. I have yet to hear a Fundamentalist railing about crosses having pagan origins.

Just an observation…
 
Maybe Egyptian “ankhs” or Celtic Crosses they believe were formerly of druids? LOL! 😛
The_GreyPilgrim said:
Christ essentially “baptized” the cross by dying on it. I have yet to hear a Fundamentalist railing about crosses having pagan origins.

Just an observation…
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