Whats wrong with female altar girls?

[Julianna]

Geez louise, in some places they are impossible to find.
Are you encouraging an SSPX parish? Because in some areas those are the only “trad parishes” to be had.

Cruise around the Roamin Catholic sites for San Diego, San Francisco and LA. Hard pressed to find a “trad parish”. Hard pressed to find a mass that is anywhere near as reverent as a Lutheran service.

If you like the traditional mass…I think most of you would move heaven and earth to get there if you had to. I attended church in the Diocese of Charleston, now the Diocese of Raliegh…and it’s possible to church shop in either one. I am the NO type…I like it. I don’t mind homilies with the priest moving around while he talks. I’m not Simon Cowell and I’m sure the priest is not auditioning. I am there for the message and the Eucharist. It’s not for everyone, some like the charasmatic, not my thing, but I don’t jump down their throats. As the times they are a changin’, it is difficult to find a Catholic Church that suits “everyone” in the US.

I don’t see how female altar servers make the mass more or less reverant/solemn.

 

[netmilsmom]

I appreciate the reference but can you give me a link so I can read the whole thing?

adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

If you and one other parish in your diocese is the only one that doesn’t allow girls as you stated in an another post, then I think you might need some luck.

I wish you and your parish well.

New Agers, modernists, heretics and pagans count on luck. We pray and are blessed by Our Lord Jesus Christ, by the intercession of His Holy Mother.

We have recently had two priests ordained from our parish. They are now brings traditional thinking to others. We have five seminarians who will also take the experience to new parishes. If that equals “backward” I’ll take it.

And how are the vocations doing in modern parishes?

 

[netmilsmom]

I I attended church in the Diocese of Charleston, now the Diocese of Raliegh…and it’s possible to church shop in either one. .

Find a traditional mass. No innovation.
You’re blessed if you find one.

 

[E.E.N.S]

This is a great article, a bit long, but well worth the read:

http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt88.html

A smal piece taken from the article:

"In the first place the total and extreme novelty of this practice is in itself very troubling. Why do I say that? After all, in a technological age and culture wherein what is new enjoys an almost automatic presumption of improvement, progress, and superiority, such an attitude may sound to many like mere obscurantism: resistance to something new and different merely because it is new and different. But in Catholic liturgy, as in Catholic doctrine, the a priori presumption should be exactly the opposite of that which rightly prevails in the natural sciences and technology. The very logic of a religion which claims to have been divinely and definitively revealed two thousand years ago requires that its faithful followers be deeply conservative in outlook. An a priori suspicion of novelty, within such a hermeneutical context, is not merely a case of stubborn or blind prejudice; it is profoundly reasonable, and indeed, necessary. After all, God is eternal; therefore, as the American Catholic journalist Joseph Sobran has wisely remarked, liturgy ought to look and sound ‘old-fashioned’, and indeed ancient, because that is the nearest we mortals can get to representing the idea of eternity. "

Did anyone ever read this (above)?? I never got any responses so I think it was possibly skimmed over.

Well worth the read though.

 

[Brendan]

Since the Pope fails to conform to their wishes they actually think that the Pope is wrong!
They become the Cafeteria Catholics they like to criticize so much!

Note that I have not, any any point, claimed that the Pope is wrong on this matter.

In fact Mike has been the only one to suggest that

mikew262:

Possibly. This is not a matter of faith or morals, so it’s quite possible the Pope is a little off target on this one.

The Pope has given permission for the use of girls for altar service, under the conditions that the local bishop first must approve and then ONLY when the priest himself also approves, and that the use of altar girls not be forced on a priest who chooses otherwise.

All I do is encourage priests to use the option that the Pope has given them to reject the use of altar girls (just like the Pope himself does ).

No rejection of Papal decrees, in fact all I do is encourage priests to celebrate Mass with the Pope himself as a liturgical model

 

[Julianna]

Find a traditional mass. No innovation.
You’re blessed if you find one.

Well, I guess you’ll have to move to Nebraska or Detroit…seems that is where they are.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Beautiful NO Mass example: Assumption Grotto:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[netmilsmom]

Well, I guess you’ll have to move to Nebraska or Detroit…seems that is where they are.

Perfect solution.
Instead of meeting the needs of all Catholics, just move those that aren’t to your thinking. Get with the program or pack your bags. Nice.

Sounds a bit like Ethnic Cleansing to me. I think the white folk treated the native Americans the same way.

 

[Julianna]

Beautiful NO Mass example: Assumption Grotto:

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/1659/2191/400/448044/MM06 056_a.jpg

That is so beautiful…thank you for sharing it with me. I have a b-i-l who lives in Detroit, when I visit there…I will have to go see for myself. Looks like a church I belonged to in the Diocese of Springfield when I was kid growing up.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

So am I to believe that your parishes have a set, finite number of altar server positions and these pernicious, conniving and unorthodox girls are stealing these precious few positions from the boys? And this, THIS is why there is such a dire shortage of vocations? Talk about bending reality to fit one’s preconcieved prejudices!

It is not a matter of heterodox little 5th grade girls, it is a matter of the behind-the-scenes politics and questionable ecclesiologies.

As one of my home archdiocesan pastors says, having girl altar servers sometimes results in emotional and intellectual child abuse. Maybe not that drastic, but some of the Heterodox use girls as human debate shields (the whole “Don’t pick on little girls and be a big meanie…”) or lead them on and let them think they can someday be priests or “rule the roost” like some folks want to teach them to do and the fact is that they can’t. We don’t need to train any more washed-up has-been angry old feminists.

Many here seem to not like girl altar servers because…well, because they don’t like girl altar servers. Yes, the Vatican has stated that boy altar servers are nice as they uphold a pleasant small-t tradition. However, I have yet to see where the Vatican has disallowed girl altar servers.

You underemphasize what the Vatican wants. They don’t say “it would be nice to keep altar boys” rather they said it more like “female altar servers are allowed BUT we want altar boys because it is a laudable and long-standing tradition and a fertile ground for vocations to the priesthood.”

The Vatican has disallowed altar girls for the past 2000 some yrs. The question to ask is not if the Vatican has disallowed girls altar boys, but rather why have they allowed them after the better part of 2000 yrs. of not allowing them.

Surely, if the situation were as dire as many her suggest, they would be on the case, no? And yet we hear…nothing. Hmm. More tacit support for my claim that this anti-girl movement is little more than personal vendettas not sanctioned by the Church?

The Church is run by humans that can screw up or can play their cards in order to prevent bigger problems in disciplinary matters. There are major and complicated politics at play behind the scenes from the simple country parish right up to Vatican City. It is foolish to think that just because the Vatican isn’t all up in arms over girl altar boys that therefore nothing is wrong with it. That just isn’t how the Vatican works.

I simply do not understand how people can seek to injure the parish community for the sake of their personal gender biases. Jesus did not say, “Let the children come unto me, uh, just the boys that is.” No, he welcomed them all.

Ah, yes, “injury to the parish community”. The pastor I talked about above did “injury” to his “parish community” by disallowing girl altar boys. He lost some families to other parishes, but do you know what he gained? Two or three vocations.

The whole “WWJD?” approach to liturgy is not a very Catholic outlook on things. We do not judge liturgical innovations on some preconceived notion of what Jesus might want, but rather on the solid testimony of tradition from across the centuries and it says “No female altar servers.”

 

[netmilsmom]

The whole “WWJD?” approach to liturgy is not a very Catholic outlook on things. We do not judge liturgical innovations on some preconceived notion of what Jesus might want, but rather on the solid testimony of tradition from across the centuries and it says “No female altar servers.”

Amazingly true!
Just like the “Jesus didn’t turn children away” dribble.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Like I said, I’m very happy you have found a parish that meets your needs, I’m sure your daughter has a wonderful singing voice. I don’t think anyone is saying that your daughter is not serving the Lord, I agree she most certainly is but it is different to serve at the table of Christ, there is no getting around this. We just have to disagree on that subject.

“Serve at the table of Christ” indeed. So altar servers are glorified waiters?

That’s part of the problem, lots of folks like to emphasize the horizontal “communal meal” aspect of the Mass and seem to forget the vertical “Re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice on Cavalry” part.

The picture that EENS posted is a perfect example of what we should have got from Vatican II as per its documents. We do not need a Church that caters to individual tastes-we need Assumption Grotto type Novus Ordo Masses across the whole world.

 

[netmilsmom]

“Serve at the table of Christ” indeed. So altar servers are glorified waiters?

That’s part of the problem, lots of folks like to emphasize the horizontal “communal meal” aspect of the Mass and seem to forget the vertical “Re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice on Cavalry” part.

I wish I would have said that!

 

[Julianna]

As one of my home archdiocesan pastors says, having girl altar servers sometimes results in emotional and intellectual child abuse. Maybe not that drastic, but some of the Heterodox use girls as human debate shields (the whole “Don’t pick on little girls and be a big meanie…”) or lead them on and let them think they can someday be priests or “rule the roost” like some folks want to teach them to do and the fact is that they can’t. We don’t need to train any more washed-up has-been angry old feminists.

I didn’t realize having female altar servers was a stepping stone to feminism. Hmmmm…I’m sure Betty Friedan would have thought that would have been a neat idea…but the Catholic church in back in the day didn’t even think that would ever be possible.

“Rule the roost” …you can’t be serious. Do you know how many women in America “rule the roost” and are doing it all, working, raising kids alone, trying to keep a roof over their heads?

I know deep in your heart, if you had your way, women would be back in the kitchen bragging to her friends about the new Sunbeam iron her husband bought for her birthday. (If my husband ever gave me an appliance for a gift…I’d make him use it)…Have you seen the movie “The Stepford Wives”? If you haven’t…I’m sure you would just love it. I bet you watch reruns of Leave it to Beaver and Father Knows Best over and over and over again…longing for the good 'ol days.

Snap out of it…it’s 2006. Welcome to the millieum. Thank you suffregettes for working so hard to give women the vote.

 

[Karianne]

That is my hope for the future. The fact that the Pope put restrictions on when altar girls can be used. So the rules MAY change, but probably NOT in the way you are expecting

Our parish has 6 men in the seminary, and generally has 1 ordained to the priesthood each year or so.

These are all men who are products of an all male altar boy cadre and have seen it’s advantages.

Several of the men from our parish now are priests in parishes and now have all male altar service.

When you combine that with the other like minded parishes in the diocese, namely the ones who are producing all the vocations make up a large percentage of the soon to be priests.

So there is a lot of hope for the future.

Karianne, how many men does YOUR parish?

Since a vocation is a call from God, why does God seem so interested in calling men from parishes like ours?

Oh please, I’m not going to get into a spitting contest with you about how MY parish is better than YOUR parish!
There is always hope for the future of the Church, as long as the Faithful
keep their humility, and that means allowing the girls to be servers.
And no, Of course, the altar Servers have a more important role than the Choir, btw, otherwise this conversation would not exist.

 

[Karianne]

I didn’t realize having female altar servers was a stepping stone to feminism. Hmmmm…I’m sure Betty Friedan would have thought that would have been a neat idea…but the Catholic church in back in the day didn’t even think that would ever be possible.

“Rule the roost” …you can’t be serious. Do you know how many women in America “rule the roost” and are doing it all, working, raising kids alone, trying to keep a roof over their heads?

I know deep in your heart, if you had your way, women would be back in the kitchen bragging to her friends about the new Sunbeam iron her husband bought for her birthday. (If my husband ever gave me an appliance for a gift…I’d make him use it)…Have you seen the movie “The Stepford Wives”? If you haven’t…I’m sure you would just love it. I bet you watch reruns of Leave it to Beaver and Father Knows Best over and over and over again…longing for the good 'ol days.

Snap out of it…it’s 2006. Welcome to the millieum. Thank you suffregettes for working so hard to give women the vote.

LOL!
Of course, there are too many working women who would love to be home with their kids if their husbands didn’t depend on their wages.

Or, I guess that some men might be better off at home if women made equal wages to men and that worked better for the couple.

I still maintain that it’s fear that makes folks dislike the idea of female altar servers. Men are afraid that the good jobs might be taken away from their boys by those uppity girls and women are afraid that may have to actually CONTRIBUTE in an important way.

 

[Julianna]

Perfect solution.
Instead of meeting the needs of all Catholics, just move those that aren’t to your thinking. Get with the program or pack your bags. Nice.

Sounds a bit like Ethnic Cleansing to me. I think the white folk treated the native Americans the same way.

Instead of voting for a candidate who meets the needs of all citizens, regardless of religion, just move those that aren’t to his/her personal religious beliefs. Get with the program or pack your bags.

Ooops…meant to post this on the Would a Catholic make a good president thread.

 

[Karianne]

Perfect solution.
Instead of meeting the needs of all Catholics, just move those that aren’t to your thinking. Get with the program or pack your bags. Nice.

Sounds a bit like Ethnic Cleansing to me. I think the white folk treated the native Americans the same way.

It’s not at all like that, no one is forcing anyone to leave, there’s a big difference between someone stubbornly refusing to be obedient to the parish where God has placed them to being forced out.
However, if you are not happy where you are at you have a right to leave, that’s your Free Will in action!

 

[Karianne]

Instead of voting for a candidate who meets the needs of all citizens, regardless of religion, just move those that aren’t to his/her personal religious beliefs. Get with the program or pack your bags.

Ooops…meant to post this on the Would a Catholic make a good president thread.

Good one, Julianna!

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I didn’t realize having female altar servers was a stepping stone to feminism. Hmmmm…I’m sure Betty Friedan would have thought that would have been a neat idea…but the Catholic church in back in the day didn’t even think that would ever be possible.

Do a Google search on “women priests” and read some of their stories. Often they start out with them pining for the chance to be altar girls.

Feminism is just one head of the hydra of modernism, it started way before Friedan was even born.

I know deep in your heart, if you had your way, women would be back in the kitchen bragging to her friends about the new Sunbeam iron her husband bought for her birthday. (If my husband ever gave me an appliance for a gift…I’d make him use it)…Have you seen the movie “The Stepford Wives”? If you haven’t…I’m sure you would just love it. I bet you watch reruns of Leave it to Beaver and Father Knows Best over and over and over again…longing for the good 'ol days.

You know my heart? Wow…I get to talk with God on the CA forums!

Snap out of it…it’s 2006. Welcome to the millieum. Thank you suffregettes for working so hard to give women the vote.

It’s 2006? Oh, I am completely underwhelmed. The Church isn’t subject to secular concepts of what is right or wrong, in or out, fair or not. Bl. Pius IX condemned this idea in the Syllabus of Errors-

1. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.- -Allocution “Jamdudum cernimus,” March 18, 1861.

Its 106, 506, 1006, 1206, 1506, 1806, 1906…welcome to the Catholic Church-Semper Idem!

There is always hope for the future of the Church, as long as the Faithful keep their humility, and that means allowing the girls to be servers.

Allowing girls to be servers has NOTHING to do with humility. Furthermore, there will always be hope for the future of the Church because Jesus Christ Himself promised that the gates of Hell will never prevail against it…

I still maintain that it’s fear that makes folks dislike the idea of female altar servers. Men are afraid that the good jobs might be taken away from their boys by those uppity girls and women are afraid that may have to actually CONTRIBUTE in an important way.

Then you didn’t read what we’ve been writing. It has nothing to do with fear and everything to do with tradition, orthodoxy, fostering vocations etc.

It’s not at all like that, no one is forcing anyone to leave, there’s a big difference between someone stubbornly refusing to be obedient to the parish where God has placed them to being forced out.

We are not Calvinists who think that their path is predestined like this. “Obedience to the parish”? What? That isn’t how the Church works.