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TradyDaddy
Guest
… at least … for now… this doctrine too could “evolve” someday.
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MrS
Guest
After the Consecration… the appearance of wine remains, but what we know is that we have the Precious Blood of the Lord before us.Also whats with all the people skipping on the wine???
Rusty
The Church teaches, and always has, that either the bread or the wine, once consecrated, each is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Thus, those who “skip” often do so, because they know that they are missing nothing… and have received Everything.
back to the OP
there is nothing wrong with “female altar girls” but there might be something strange about “male altar girls”
And this coming weekend… on the first Sunday of the new liturgical year…
my parish is re-instituting the black cassocks,and the white surplices… Joy to the World.
.
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MaryAgnesLamb
Guest
I find nothing wrong with this practice, especially as it is allowed by the Church. In our parish there are about equally boys and girls serving. No one wants to serve at the 5pm Saturday Mass, though–so it mostly falls to adult servers. Almost exclusively adult female servers. I guess the boys and girls don’t want to play on the same team thing cuts pretty deep, in that case.
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MrS
Guest
Yep, that is often part of the fallout with this situation… make them “equal”, and then we have to find someone to want to serve.
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MaryAgnesLamb
Guest
:ehh: Actually, I don’t agree. I don’t think that fifty year old men are not stepping up for this because there are women serving at that Mass. It has more to do with their not stepping up generally (in some particular cases) or with the fact that they are already serving as extraordinary Eucharistic ministers or Lectors.
I think that there MAY be a tie in with the presence of older boys and young men, for younger boys participation. Because, as I mentioned earlier we have plenty of boys serving although there are girls, too. What we do have in our parish that may spur that is that we are the Catholic ministry university parish for our city. We have several devout young adult men who serve, and that is an impetus for the boys, I believe. Someone else mentioned this connection earlier in the that thread, I think.
Another curb that seems to exist in our parish is that parents don’t want to commit to inconvenience themselves to go to another Mass so that their son (or daughter) can serve. Hence the 5pm Saturday dilemma. This is a Mass that is less popular with families with children, owing I suppose, to activities.
So, a point that I might make is that we can lay things at the door of the boy/girl issue that rightly might be owing elsewhere.
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Cristiano
Guest
That it is a problem with the parents and not with the kids. They do not teach their sons and daughters what an obligation is about. On Saturdays my son is often tired and complains about serving at the vigil Mass (we also go to the morning Mass the day after) but when asked if he wants to give it up he says “no way!” He knows that it is his commitment and privilege, and after Mass he always looks so pleased of having served. What helps it is also the fact that in our parish every Mass is quite formal and so it is clear that the servers have a specific role, and on top of that the priests and deacons strongly support these kids when the proper behaviors and reverence are shown.
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MaryAgnesLamb
Guest
I quite agree! Sometimes the young have to be shepherded, as do we all–if parents would lead, and be parents, then some of this difficulty would evaporate, as your experience shows.
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MrS
Guest
Cristiano
Detroit is installing her new Bishop tomorrow… from your neck of the woods. Msgr Flores, as the new bishop, will also be in charge of vocations for the diocese…
sounds like we have something positive to look forward to
Detroit is installing her new Bishop tomorrow… from your neck of the woods. Msgr Flores, as the new bishop, will also be in charge of vocations for the diocese…
sounds like we have something positive to look forward to
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E.E.N.S
Guest
This is a great article, a bit long, but well worth the read:
http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt88.html
A smal piece taken from the article:
"In the first place the total and extreme novelty of this practice is in itself very troubling. Why do I say that? After all, in a technological age and culture wherein what is new enjoys an almost automatic presumption of improvement, progress, and superiority, such an attitude may sound to many like mere obscurantism: resistance to something new and different merely because it is new and different. But in Catholic liturgy, as in Catholic doctrine, the a priori presumption should be exactly the opposite of that which rightly prevails in the natural sciences and technology. The very logic of a religion which claims to have been divinely and definitively revealed two thousand years ago requires that its faithful followers be deeply conservative in outlook. An a priori suspicion of novelty, within such a hermeneutical context, is not merely a case of stubborn or blind prejudice; it is profoundly reasonable, and indeed, necessary. After all, God is eternal; therefore, as the American Catholic journalist Joseph Sobran has wisely remarked, liturgy ought to look and sound ‘old-fashioned’, and indeed ancient, because that is the nearest we mortals can get to representing the idea of eternity. "
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Irish_Apologist_1
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JMJ
I have just finished reading this entire thread and I am in awe at the fact that this subject even NEEDS to be talked about…
I am humbled even now before Our Lord in thanksgiving that I am spared all of this. I assist at the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass (Traditional Latin) and this topic would NEVER come up…Girls serving at the Holy Altar, extraordinary “ministers.” and the like… (shudders to remember the days when I had to assist at the N.O.)
I am not trying to offend anyone however; I’m sure that will happen and I apologize in advance if my words offend you.
My honest heart-felt prayers go out to those Catholics who do not have the Mass of all ages avail. to them and must suffer the N.O. and all of the destructive changes that VII brought…
I have just finished reading this entire thread and I am in awe at the fact that this subject even NEEDS to be talked about…
I am humbled even now before Our Lord in thanksgiving that I am spared all of this. I assist at the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass (Traditional Latin) and this topic would NEVER come up…Girls serving at the Holy Altar, extraordinary “ministers.” and the like… (shudders to remember the days when I had to assist at the N.O.)
I am not trying to offend anyone however; I’m sure that will happen and I apologize in advance if my words offend you.
My honest heart-felt prayers go out to those Catholics who do not have the Mass of all ages avail. to them and must suffer the N.O. and all of the destructive changes that VII brought…
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mrs_abbott
Guest
I started a thread on this some time ago. I feel that allowing females to serve impedes a male’s chance of getting to serve. As females can’t be priests, why should they be allowed to serve? I was taught that letting young boys serve was a chance to let them see firsthand if they were interested in the priesthood. Now, at my parish, there are so many females that volunteer to serve that males hardly get a chance to in the rotation. 
For those of you with daughters who serve, this is not an attack on you or them. I was just sharing my thoughts on the matter.
For those of you with daughters who serve, this is not an attack on you or them. I was just sharing my thoughts on the matter.
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Prayerful
Guest
I agree with everything you said. That’s certainly the case in my parish. My parish began allowing female servers about 4 years ago with the arrival of a new pastor. Even though we had an abundance of male servers at the time of the change, more than 90% are now female. I would hope that nobody would dare insult my intellegence (low as it may be) by suggesting this does not negatively impact the cultivation of priestly vocations.I started a thread on this some time ago. I feel that allowing females to serve impedes a male’s chance of getting to serve. As females can’t be priests, why should they be allowed to serve? I was taught that letting young boys serve was a chance to let them see firsthand if they were interested in the priesthood. Now, at my parish, there are so many females that volunteer to serve that males hardly get a chance to in the rotation.
For those of you with daughters who serve, this is not an attack on you or them. I was just sharing my thoughts on the matter.
While I follow the Church’s position of allowing female altar servers, I am also extremely disappointed that this change was born amidst widespread abuse.
The caving-in by the Holy See sent a horrible message of “if you want change, just force it through liturgical abuse.” So while I follow the Church’s instruction on this matter, there is rarely a day that goes by that I do not pray for the reversal of this instuction by Pope Benedict XVI.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
You’re right, the only thing we can do is pray.
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TradyDaddy
Guest
And how instantly the Bishops seem to comply when such an “abuse” is accepted by the Vatican, however, when a “widespread” and “generous” application of the Traditional Latin Mass is called for, what do we get? One or maybe two TLM’s within a given diocese, sometimes none at all? I remember the first indult Mass I attended and the posture, exact movements and actions of the altar boys. I thought to myself, "this is like the Green Beret version of “servers”. It’s no wonder young boys/men had such a calling to that service and thus the stream of new candidates for the Priesthood.
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ComradeAndrei
Guest
Isn’t that funny how that works? These are perfect examples of how interpretation w/ a strong bias rears its ugly little head. Like I’ve said before, the few lines that merely allow girl altar servers are read as if they were written in the sky in gold by God Himself and the same type of people see “widespread” and “generous” as “limited” and “rarely”. You definately see the liberal modernist politics at work. I hope and pray for the day when the Vatican comes down hard, because every year that goes by in which these aberrations and “innovations” are allowed by the hierarchy or they at least look the other way when they happen it makes it all that much harder to get things back to where they should be.
We have seen small but significant victories as of late. That EMHC can no longer purify vessels and that the Vatican says that Communion can be given under the species of bread alone (as per Trent and the de fide teaching of the Universal Church since time immemorial) and the specific order of the Holy Father for the vernacular rendering of “pro multis” to “for many” are good signs. Hopefully this is just the begining.
Pretty much. At my dad’s parish, they actually had to try out to be altar servers. You weren’t guaranteed a spot-you actually had to be good at it. You needed to know what you were required to say, genuflect properly, bow properly, etc. etc.
I even remember serving at the tail end of the days in which being an altar boy meant being one of the “club” so to say. It meant something, you had to at least ring the bells with a certain gusto, walk with reverence, etc. Once the “club” was opened up to everyone, the interest and esprit d’corps was gone.
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marci
Guest
I have three young girls and I will never allow them to be alter girls. I see no value in it. Like many previous posts, I believe it is just another way of easing the church into modernist thinking. What’s the saying about putting a frog into boiling water? He will jump out, but if you put him in cool water and then slowly turn the heat up he will sit there until he cooks!
Everyone should read the Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius X “On the Doctrines of the Modernists (Pascendi Dominici Gregis)” and “Syllabus condemning the errors of the Modernists (Lamentabili Sane)” July 3, 1907.
In it St. Pius X quotes the Second Council of Nicea, where it condemns those “who dare, after impious fashion of heretics, to deride the ecclesiastical traditions, to invent novelties of some kind…or endeavor by malice or craft to overthrow any one of the legitimate traditions of the Catholic Church.”
I believe that the modernists still exist today, and eventhough they may not speak openly about or even understand the rationalist beliefs of their predacesors (most would deny these characteristics) they still join in the movement of the modernists toward the desired end, though they don’t even realise it.
Everyone should read the Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius X “On the Doctrines of the Modernists (Pascendi Dominici Gregis)” and “Syllabus condemning the errors of the Modernists (Lamentabili Sane)” July 3, 1907.
In it St. Pius X quotes the Second Council of Nicea, where it condemns those “who dare, after impious fashion of heretics, to deride the ecclesiastical traditions, to invent novelties of some kind…or endeavor by malice or craft to overthrow any one of the legitimate traditions of the Catholic Church.”
I believe that the modernists still exist today, and eventhough they may not speak openly about or even understand the rationalist beliefs of their predacesors (most would deny these characteristics) they still join in the movement of the modernists toward the desired end, though they don’t even realise it.
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ChemicalBean
Guest
That’s not a very fair thing to say about boys, or men in general. How are they spiritually disadvantaged? Where does the Church teach this?
I would also remind you that girls also need to be active and do things hands-on in order to keep attentive - this is a personality characteristic and a learning style, not a gender trait.
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defenderoftruth
Guest
I go to a traditional Anglican church and only males can be acolytes, and only the priests (who are male only in the traditional Anglican church) give the communion. I really wish the RC church would do the same. (I’m thinking about coming over). Having women and little girls involved is not acceptable to me AND I’M A WOMAN! The problem is the “it’s not fair” mentality. God made men men for a reason, only men are to be priests, only boys should be altar boys hence the altar BOY name. Women become nuns and wives and men become altar boys and priests.
surprised?!
DoT
surprised?!
DoT
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ComradeAndrei
Guest
Oh, they exist. This “synthesis of all heresies” has developed into its most dangerous form-the non-intellectual “feel good” type. The rationalist modernists of the late 19th/early 20th Century began the trend (as Pope St. Pius X clearly tells us) with their feigned “ignorance” and false humility but they still held firm to their poisonous philosophy.
The rationalist modernist still exists, in the persons of defunct theologians like Kung. However, they have been silenced and no longer pose a real threat. However, there are plenty of people around (probably in your own parish) who have softened their minds with modernist error but do not defend it with any intellectual rigor. They support modernism because they go along with the flow of the world. “Women priests? Why not in our “enlightened” world? The Church needs to come out of the ‘Dark Ages’”. Nonsense, pure and utter heresy.
Error taints this discussion too. Why, praytell, do we allow girl altar servers-which flies in the face of 1900 some odd years of constant practice and tradition? Is there any real argument aside from emotionalistic feminist modernism and ignorance?
Which is a symptom of the modernist mindset.
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