What's wrong with having background checks for gun ownership?

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In Catholic moral theology the consequences which influence the morality of human acts are the consequences for ALL…
Well then, the proliferation of guns amongst governments should be our first conversation. If the anticipated outcomes are even dramatically better than recent history, it is clear that guns in the hands of governments is entirely immoral, and since the consequences apply to all, then even the most peaceful governments are to be held to the low standards set by socialist regimes, communist and fascist, over the last 100 years.

Jon
 
Well then, the proliferation of guns amongst governments should be our first conversation.
Start with a proposition - should the US act to eliminate guns from the military/police etc Is that the act in question?
If the anticipated outcomes are even dramatically better than recent history, it is clear that guns in the hands of governments is entirely immoral,
We need to judge an act, not a “state”
and since the consequences apply to all, then even the most peaceful governments are to be held to the low standards set by socialist regimes, communist and fascist, over the last 100 years.
Not sure what you are trying to say. Consequences don’t “apply to all”. Consequences of acts are to be assessed in terms of their impact on all.
 
=Rau;14152018]Start with a proposition - should the US act to eliminate guns from the military/police etc Is that the act in question?
Of course not, but I’m not the one questioning the availability of guns in society. In the same way with individuals, government having guns is not, per se, immoral. It is how they are used that determines immorality.
That said, government only has guns because the people grant it that power.
We need to judge an act, not a “state”
We need to judge an individual’s act, not the individual right.
Not sure what you are trying to say. Consequences don’t “apply to all”. Consequences of acts are to be assessed in terms of their impact on all.
The consequences of government having guns was horrendous in the 20th century, but not the U.S. Government. Still, by your approach, the U.S. government ownership of guns must be measured by the actions of all governments

Jon
 
The consequences of government having guns was horrendous in the 20th century, but not the U.S. Government.
Jon
What evidence do you have that this good fortune in the US is due to citizens having guns, rather than the host of other distinguishing features of the US, such as the Constitutional separations of powers, etc.?
 
What evidence do you have that this good fortune in the US is due to citizens having guns, rather than the host of other distinguishing features of the US, such as the Constitutional separations of powers, etc.?
And education levels, and the dominant belief systems, and so on…
 
What evidence do you have that this good fortune in the US is due to citizens having guns, rather than the host of other distinguishing features of the US, such as the Constitutional separations of powers, etc.?
It is the 2nd Amendment ensures the rest as the Founders noted in their phrasing of the Amendment.
 
Not sure the premise of the question is valid.

Today there are indeed strict background checks on legal gun purchases, including gun shows, so the premise that there are no strict checks is false.

Typically you must wait 3 days before you can pickup a firearm after purchase. The exception is if you have a carry permit, which itself requires extensive background checks.

The checks should include national origin. Example, if you are from countries where terrorism is an issue, there should be additional scrutiny to see if you have been potentially radicalized. This can include discussions with references, noting where you attend religious services, any priior criminal history, and other factors.

Psychological factors should be considered for those who have been definitively diagnosed as shizophrenic and/or other serious mental disorders.

However, once all check are done, people should be allowed to open carry or conceal carry, whatever their preferrence.
 
What evidence do you have that this good fortune in the US is due to citizens having guns, rather than the host of other distinguishing features of the US, such as the Constitutional separations of powers, etc.?
I think it has to do with the constitutional principles of a civilian led military. But you seem to want to draw a distinction, false I believe, between the second amendment and the distinction of powers within the constitutional system. They are closely related.

Jon
 
And education levels, and the dominant belief systems, and so on…
As I mentioned above, I think it is a false dichotomy to try to separate out one of the protected rights in this way. Even if the second amendment did nothing to advance these things, the protected right is an individual inherent human and civil right.

Jon
 
As I mentioned above, I think it is a false dichotomy to try to separate out one of the protected rights in this way. Even if the second amendment did nothing to advance these things, the protected right is an individual inherent human and civil right.

Jon
The distinction between “rights” and one’s assessment of morality has been amply discussed. Pursuing the widespread exercise of a right can be moral. Or it can be immoral.
 
As I mentioned above, I think it is a false dichotomy to try to separate out one of the protected rights in this way. Even if the second amendment did nothing to advance these things, the protected right is an individual inherent human and civil right.

Jon
You have stated repeatedly that the right to guns is inherent, despite the lack of evidence from any moral authority. (The constitution is not a moral authority. It can be fallible.)
 
You have stated repeatedly that the right to guns is inherent, despite the lack of evidence from any moral authority. (The constitution is not a moral authority. It can be fallible.)
Explain how you can have the right to life if you don’t have the right to preserve it.
 
Explain how you can have the right to life if you don’t have the right to preserve it.
OK, since you insist on my guessing what your argument is, I will assume you mean that guns are necessary to preserve life. My answer is that for the vast majority of people, they will never in their lifetime find it necessary to use a gun to preserve their life. In addition, the right to preserve your life is not absolute. It limited by its affect on other people’s lives, which also should be preserved. How that balance is best achieved is a matter of prudential judgement about which people of good faith may differ. Therefore one person’s judgement on this question could not be inherent, which would imply that people of good faith may not differ.
 
You are wrong.
What you are saying is that even though you have a right to something, everyone else has a right to unjustly take it away.
Maybe you wish I would say that, but I am not going to comply.
The idea that we are not to protect ourselves is simply ridiculous.
If only that were my idea it would indeed be ridiculous. Let’s stop knocking down strawmen, shall we?
 
The distinction between “rights” and one’s assessment of morality has been amply discussed. Pursuing the widespread exercise of a right can be moral. Or it can be immoral.
Why do you put rights in quotes? My reason for asking is I want to make sure we have an agreement that individuals have rights antecedent to government and, in your words, the collective.

I agree that one can indeed improperly exercise individual rights, such that others rights are harmed. For example, when I practice shooting a firearm, I take all possible precautions against others being harmed. Not doing so would indeed be immoral, but the right itself is not immoral.

Jon
 
Why do you put rights in quotes? My reason for asking is I want to make sure we have an agreement that individuals have rights antecedent to government and, in your words, the collective.

I agree that one can indeed improperly exercise individual rights, such that others rights are harmed. For example, when I practice shooting a firearm, I take all possible precautions against others being harmed. Not doing so would indeed be immoral, but the right itself is not immoral.

Jon
These questions have all been addressed previously. You speak here of the “right” to use your firearm, and it is self evident that you can do wrong in that exercise. 🤷

I have explained numerous times that even the promotion of widespread gun ownership in modern society can be judged immoral.

I place “rights” in quotes because I don’t buy your elevation of certain “rights” to divinely ordained status. I’ve said this to you previously too.
 
Actually, the Biblical idea was that potentially, every man of Israel was able to defend his family, and was part of the army. There were various exemptions (like the guy who just got married within the last year), but in general they were expected to know how to use and own their own spear (not as much skill), the sword (more skill and expense), the bow, or the sling (the highly feared and super-deadly weapon of the tribe of Benjamin).

Greece and Rome started out with very similar systems.

Most European Christian countries where there were freemen (as opposed to serfs) expected every free man to be able to serve in the army in time of war, and to do some sort of weapons training. Often people trained together as a militia.

England is a specialized case, because for most of its history, most of its people weren’t freemen; and most of the people weren’t allowed to legally hunt, even if they were freemen. Among the Saxons, pretty much all free men fought, and even thralls could hunt. Among the Normans, only nobles were allowed to bear weapons or hunt. (Although serfs got pretty good with “oh, yeah, this quarterstaff is just a walking stick,” and poaching and snaring was always a thing.)

When the English kings figured out that they needed huge numbers of longbowmen to counter the gigantic chivalric cavalry and foot troops found in the rest of Europe, suddenly every ablebodied man below the nobility had to practice longbow. And because they had all these well-armed peasants and serfs, suddenly peasants got a lot better deal.

There were a ton of revolts and civil wars in English history. The way Parliament and the new kings tried to stop it was disarming everybody and stopping hunting again. Except for the nobles or the rich, of course. Later on, there were exceptions made for veterans and wartime conditions in WWI and WWII. But after that, the clamps went back on with a vengeance. The big difference was that the Labor party et al. also wanted to disarm the nobles and the rich, and thus pretended that only la-di-dah people had weaponry to take away.

This is also representative of gun and sword control in historical Japan and China. Whenever the government wishes to ignore the rights and wishes of the governed, the first thing they do is disarm the common people and arm some trusted group. (And the common people generally react by inventing “invisible” weaponry that gives them plausible deniability, or by making unarmed martial arts more violent and effective, or just by plain old guerrilla warfare.) For extra fun, you give the trusted group no money but the right to kill the common people whenever they want, so the trusted group can never team up with the common people.

Meanwhile, because the whole point of the US was being freemen and not serfs, the US took the opposite take to prevent civil wars and revolts – everybody is part of the militia and everybody can have guns and hunt. Disarmament was something visited upon black slaves, in the past, or criminals and madmen in the present.

And finally, cars and trucks kill a lot more people than guns do. But nobody runs a homicidal looniness test on people going for drivers’ licenses, even in Europe.
 
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