What's Wrong With Scott Hahn?

[benedictus2]

Excubitor, I couldn’t agree more. Have you read Peter Kreeft’s “Socratic Logic”? His little defense of stereotypes is brilliant. I’d suggest it to anyone. But he’s just a simple convert like us, so maybe his opinion doesn’t count.

As for statistics, what about the rise of Pentecostalism in Latin America? Surely we’re not expected to believe these were all little doctors?

The Catholic stereo type does exist and is proven fact.

Many are tepid and ill informed about their faith. I am a cradle Catholic myself and I know that a great majority are under catechized. Surpisingly even some priests. It is incredible the kind of theology that some priests pass for Catholic theology.

But that is changing and thanks mostly to the converts who are on fire for their new found home. May their kind increase.

 

[Elizabeth502]

You need to reflect on how to use stereotyping as a necessary form of communication and how not to take personal offence to it where none is intended.
If indeed the premise of a generisation is faulty then I suggest you just calmly explain how that premise is in error instead of launching off into an hysterical tirade of wounded emotion.

“Hysterical tirades”? Look in the mirror, sir. My responses were actually very restrained. Read yours. They’re seriously vitriol. I’ll address this to the moderators.

These stereotypes are not even vaguely communicative, but marginalizing, and baseless.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The Catholic stereo type does exist and is proven fact.

Oh, do tell all the cradle Catholics whom you have not met that their lame and ignorant, uninformed knowledge of the faith is “a proven fact.”

Many

 

[Elizabeth502]

Face it. Your grand experiment to protestantise the Church HAS FAILED.

If you’re speaking to me, as some personal aside from Jeremiah, do you have any idea of how rude you sound? I don’t have a “grand experiment to Protestantize the Church.” Perhaps your mother should have taught you some manners? Fire is not of much use without corresponding charity.

 

[benedictus2]

Oh, do tell all the cradle Catholics whom you have not met that their lame and ignorant, uninformed knowledge of the faith is “a proven fact.”

Elizabeth, you may be angry about this but it is true. I am involved in some kind of evangelization and I know.

I am not saying that they are not good people. Just that they don’t know their faith all that well. Why do you think it is so very easy for evangelicals to convert them to protestantism? Because they cant’ defend their own faith and this is due to a lack of knowledge.

Many does not equal most, and certainly it does not equal almost all. See? I can expand my font, too.

I suggest you visit Fr Barron’s website and locate the article on the Pew Forum.

Unless you know “all cradle Catholics,” you have no evidence that “a great majority of cradle Catholics” are under catechized. You can speak only of the cradle Catholics you personally know, and that’s as far as it goes.

The Pew Forum proves this. Some of the Catholics I know prove this. The fact that so many are becoming protestants because they don’t know their own faith prove this.

I am a member of a group that gives seminars on the faith and yet even the members of my group are not well informed about their faith. But there is no doubting their sincerity and their commitment to their faith.

Except for the teeny tiny detail that much of the new converts are being taught by converts who were poorly and hastily catechized, and some of the evidence is on not only this thread but on many threads on CAF, where the history, the philosophy, and the systematics are shallow, and where logical argumentation is vacuous. Hmmm…

Actually I doubt that. I have read their books and they are very well footnoted with references to the Bible, Encyclicals, Fathers of the Church, Council Documents, etc. etc.

They are well read and quite erudite. They have to be because most converts fought tooth and nail every argument that the Church proposes. It is only because they are overwhelmed by the truth that in the the end they have to bow to it.

Their grounding in scripture is a big help.

Quite honestly, I do not understand the resentment some feel towards them. I am just very thankful that we have new members who are able to make a defense of the truth and are on fire for it.

 

[excubitor]

They are well read and quite erudite. They have to be because most converts fought tooth and nail every argument that the Church proposes. It is only because they are overwhelmed by the truth that in the the end they have to bow to it.

This exacty describes the process of my conversion. The Lord blessed me with a cushy job which gave me hours of free time to research all of the Catholic/Protestant distinctives. I must have spent a thousand hours of research. My conversion is documented as I struggled with these issues on a number of forums all using this “excubitor” tag. I have literally written tens of thousands of words and scripture studies on these various forums. I have researched the history of the church including the various heresies, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Apparitions of Mary, the miracles of the Saints, all of the Church fathers. Plus I have received personal instruction of the very highest standard from a priest of the Latin Rite in preparation of my reception into the Catholic faith.

It was exactly the sheer force of truth and scripture which compelled me to convert to the Catholic faith. From a young age after 25 years of diligent Bible Study and devotion to the truth I simply could not refute in any honest way the teachings of the Catholic church. I therefore converted at great personal cost, losing friends and family, turning my back on my old church which I loved and the people I loved and which I miss terribly still.

And yet despite these griefs I have not been received into the Catholic church like a long lost brother, but have had to deal with these prejudices of cradle catholics who regard me either with suspicion or else with puzzlement that I even bothered to convert in the first place. It’s incredible how woeful the local parish is. What a great blessing that there are some orthodox Catholics in union with the Pope still to be found in the FSSP and the rare-as-hen’s-teeth conservative OF mass, even if I do have to drive across town to find it.

And quite honestly that’s not good enough. The local bishop has a responsibility to provide me an orthodox and conservative parish in my local area. It is my dearest desire to be joined in union with my local parish, but my fledgling faith struggles with the belief in the Real Presence and I feel that it is imperative for the sake of my eternal soul to become established in this fundamental belief of Holy Mother Church. But the awareness of the Real Presence is not evident at my local parish. If the people there are aware of our Lord dwelling in the sanctuary then they show no evidence of it. In fact, on my rare visits to the local parish I get glared at if I genuflect as I pass the tabernacle because I am holding up the people rushing to get out.

By contrast the FSSP mass that I attend is extremely reverent towards the blessed host. Cradle catholics might be able to take the Real Presence for granted having grown up with the knowledge all their life. In fact it might be so obvious to them now that they no longer have to provide any physical evidence of their awareness of this fact and believe that they are grown beyond all that kind of outward display now. As for me though I am new and weak in the faith and I need to have these things reinforced by seeing my fellow Catholics show their adoration for the manifestation of our Lord in the Eucharist. I need the genuflections and the benedictions to really reinforce this little kernel of faith that the Holy Ghost has graced me with.

 

[benedictus2]

And yet despite these griefs I have not been received into the Catholic church like a long lost brother, but have had to deal with these prejudices of cradle catholics who regard me either with suspicion or else with puzzlement that I even bothered to convert in the first place. It’s incredible how woeful the local parish is. What a great blessing that there are some orthodox Catholics in union with the Pope still to be found in the FSSP and the rare-as-hen’s-teeth conservative OF mass, even if I do have to drive across town to find it.

All I can say is I am so very happy you are home at last.

Praise be to God!

 

[excubitor]

If you’re speaking to me, as some personal aside from Jeremiah, do you have any idea of how rude you sound? I don’t have a “grand experiment to Protestantize the Church.” Perhaps your mother should have taught you some manners? Fire is not of much use without corresponding charity.

You really are an incredibly self-absorbed person. No. It is not all about you. I was talking about the church and its bishops that rushed to introduce protestantisms in a vain and counterproductive attempt to appeal to protestants. It has not worked. The church is in a horrendous mess as a result of this experiment which was never intended by the Vatican 2 council or Paul VI liturgical reforms. It is simply a display of disobedience. The Pope gave an inch, and the people and renegade bishops took a mile. And disobedience reigns in our western churches to this day unabated. We keep waiting for the pendulum to swing back but it never does. In fact if it were not for Christ’s promise that the church would prevail, we could be excused for imagining that instead the pendulum is falling off.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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